The African and Caucasian minds: Differences in Hip Hop "styles". - Page 2 - Writers Forum

Matthatter · 12-11-2007, 08:16 AM

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I thought the article was unscientific.

I didn't attempt to make it "scientific".

It was a poor attempt to show racial differences.

Not really. I did what I did. If something this short was too difficult for you, why would I bother going deeper from the very beginning?

In the first few sentences you lapsed from mind into soul,

Lapsed? Excuse me? I am explaining the terms. Why do people think their confusion = writer's confusion? The greek 'psych' refers to mind, being, soul.

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then trivialised the whole thrust of your thought by inexplicably drifting in to hip hop, a behavioural pattern of dance which has nothing to do with quality of a man's brain.

Drifting? I had the idea to explain the difference in the context of hip hop from the very beginning. I wrote the title before anything else. How is it triviliazing? It's a single example that clarifies their differences in being.

What do you mean dancing has nothing to do with a man's brain?

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I thought Intel took the bait too easily and got dragged into a meaninglass debate. In short I think the article is classical flaming.

And you're wrong to think that. I'm not saying either side is good or bad. Don't restrict me to your own mental limitations.

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All brains in all human being are essentialy the same, although it is a scientific fact that Asian brains are larger than the rest of humanity, no one knows why. Some speculate it is because Asians are the oldest peoples. But I don't think much of that argument.

Essentially the same, because they have a lot in common?

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The quality and make up of our brains is the same throughout the world so why do we behave differently?

Again, the wuality and make up is not "the same". That is just an example of how arrogant people can be when they first start to understand (how many) things (are alike).

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It is of course because of cultural differences and language.

That's part of it, of course.

Our upbringing and the way we relate to each other with patterns and structre of society all have an input into our personality, and how we think and how we bahave.

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So that's the end of that silly discussion. No more to be said, is there?

No that's not. It;s the end of your useless input, however.

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I feel silly now having fallen and willingly engaged in such a topic.

Better than feeling like the idiot that you are.

Matthatter · 12-11-2007, 07:18 PM

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I said that the mind is not totally filtered through the body. Sometimes during the day you're not even aware of your body, such as when you're off daydreaming. Also if you've ever been in a deep meditative state you would know that one can have many out-of-body experiences. So I still disagree that the mind is totally filtered through the body. Or we can use your analogy, A can function seperately from B, although A is sometimes filtered through B.

I've had plenty of out of body experiences, but that is why I said "associations with the body". You still perceive the environment in a way habitual to your waking life's memory. You're finding conflict where there is none. Karma is essentially habit, and it follows into dreams, meditative states, etc. Buddhsm attempts to quiet and control the mind as an attempt to break habits (reducing one's wants/needs, becoming (more) content). This is Karma for the Hindus, and is helped by behavioral therapy and lots of careful philosophy here in the West.

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Your second comment is funny. Oh the mind isn't restricted to the concept of 'I' isn't it? And how would you know!? Everything that you've ever experienced, whether it be a thought or perception, has all happened through this sense of 'I'. Without 'I' there would be no world, for the world to exist for you there needs to be this 'I' that experiences it.

First off, you'd really help me out if you used quotes. Frankly, I don't trust your explanation of what I said, and sometimes I have to look back to see exactly how I worded it (you should take advantage of this care instead of rushing to faulty conclusions when a perceived conflict (in your definitions) gets you all excited).

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Oh the mind isn't restricted to the concept of 'I' isn't it? And how would you know!?

No it isn't. First off, explain what the hell "I" is. What is the concept? WHat exactly is one, before they are an "I"? What grants them "I" hood?

I didn't perceive through a cultural belief of what distinguishes one "I" from another when I was an infant. If one can perceive it then, why can't there be moments where "self-consciousness" isn't conscious? When you are so engrossed in a moment you aren't conscious you are thinking (this is not "I" consciousness). This is why people are happier doing some modest gardening then riding around in their boat. How would I know? Because I remember moments where my full concentration went on a certain task, and I wasn't currently "thinking" at all. I was just perceining... taking in a stimulus, and creating an output, no mediating it with how it relates to one's self. We have moments like this several times a day, if even for a few moments. Just because one has been engrained with an idea of what "I"ness is doesn't mean it persists for every moment (waking or dreaming) of one's life.

Were you raised religious or something? Your mind seems very... devotional, to certain cultural beliefs. It's like your proposing some God granted these beings this "I"ness, and that is what they are from the start... an infant is born and, somehow objectively, it is distinguished as special from the rest (simply because the nervous system makes sensations on this "body" easily conscious to the mind that perceives them). So yes, this infant, as soon as it is born (or conceived, for that matter!) is infused with an "I" consciousness that its similar species has imagined up and memorized through the years of written history. That's your stance?

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So unless you're some kind of sage that recognizes the impersonal nature of all things, including this 'I' thought then you've just made a ridiculous statement. Also even if you were a sage and believed the world to be one, you would still experience things through 'I', just at a deeper level.

Comapred to you, I am indeed. After all, I was talking impersonally and nonjudgementally about the general differences between two races' (average) minds, and you start going off like I'm some racist. You're just trying to save face now, since I see this "I"ness is so vital to your being. That's called egoism.

As for the last part, how do you know that's not what I'm doing right now? I'm telling you, you don't know shit, and I'm only being this blunt because you were asking for it from the very start with this ridiculous mix of ignorance and arrogance. I don't give a shit about my self-concept, I have become honest with who I am (and that is why I can comfortably by honest about the differences in others without judging them as "Good" or "Bad".)

I'm in a completely different mindset from you, Intel. Save these posts, you might enjoy it in a few years.

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I honestly don't think you know what you're talking about.

Okay. Well I just explained things for you further. If you still don't understand what I'm saying, you might just want to admit that you're not yet on my level, and quit. It's so obvious, to me... but you're not yet reasonable naturally; you are struggling to be. My mind naturally thinks reasonably, and I actively think creatively. It's very fun, once you understand this "I"ness is bullshit and you stop taking it so seriously (as long as you can utilize it to survive, fuck it. Why limit yourself to an ego through which you label yourself "Good" or "Bad" according to your merits through a cultural scoring system? Good-Enjoy the moment. Bad-Don't intrude on other's ability to enjoy the moment.

Intel · 12-11-2007, 08:12 PM

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Comapred to you, I am indeed. After all, I was talking impersonally and nonjudgementally about the general differences between two races' (average) minds, and you start going off like I'm some racist. You're just trying to save face now, since I see this "I"ness is so vital to your being. That's called egoism.

Ha! Now you're lecturing me on the ego. Mate i'm past all that new age shit. Let me quote you a true master.

Mooji: " ' I need help' is the important statement here. It is wise to seek help, until you go beyond the need for help. Not the arrogance which claims 'There's no one to be helped, no I, no you. No one exist, only that which Is', which though true when spoken through the mouth of the sage, is completely false when uttered from the ego mind- the ego rising through the intellect posing as some kind of spiritual hero. This understanding cannot be grafted onto the ego-centred mind, for true understanding dissolves the seeker-ego. There is no one left to claim freedom as an achievement."

Compared to me you're a sage, who are you fooling? That statement clearly rose out of the ego. Maybe you need to spend more time under the bhodi tree practicing your mantras burning or burning incense.

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This is why people are happier doing some modest gardening then riding around in their boat. How would I know? Because I remember moments where my full concentration went on a certain task, and I wasn't currently "thinking" at all. I was just perceining... taking in a stimulus, and creating an output, no mediating it with how it relates to one's self. We have moments like this several times a day, if even for a few moments. Just because one has been engrained with an idea of what "I"ness is doesn't mean it persists for every moment (waking or dreaming) of one's life.

'I AM' is not false, only what comes after it. I am this or I am that. Or in your case, you derive your sense of self from a particular race. However without the thinking mind 'I AM' remains. It simply isn't the false 'I am' based on past. Or the ego. Whatever happens, even if a God were to appear before you, you would have to present to witness it. 'I' would have to be there to know this.

God didn't come and tell me that I am. The world didn't come and tell me that I am. Its like Sri Nisargadatta said "What is mine is mine and was mine even when God was not". Just little thing called 'I'.

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I don't give a shit about my self-concept, I have become honest with who I am (and that is why I can comfortably by honest about the differences in others without judging them as "Good" or "Bad".)

You have become honest with who you are? Really? All I see is some guy trying to feed me some middle eastern beliefs which haven't arisen from his own experience. If you truly did recognize this 'I' as "bullshit" then you'd be enlightened right now. Why are you still a seeker?

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I'm in a completely different mindset from you, Intel.

Thats true, a different mindset, yet still trapped in the mind. You haven't escaped samsara yet my friend.

Matthatter · 12-11-2007, 10:07 PM

I didn't know you could get any more foolish. Are you completely projecting yourself onto me or something? Nothing you have said about me has been true.

Just because you jumped into New Agey stuff when I mentioned "Ego", and ran with all that, doesn't mean I'm a "new Ager". When are you going to see that you are the prejudiced one? You're the one that just pasted a couple of quotes from "masters" because you couldn't make a decent argument on your own.

You don't even know what you're arguing about... you just argue about a different thing from post to post, and I refute them all. This is ridiculous. Give up. You responded to my thread as an asshole, fooling yourself into thinking I was the asshole, and all I have been doing is pointing out to you, time and time again, that everything you say is flawed, and everything you do at this point is to save face. Go buy yourself a dog and pride yourself in being a "good master" or something. You're a waste of my time.

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Or in your case, you derive your sense of self from a particular race.

Are you kidding me? What is this supposed to mean? Read my posts again. And again, and again. I can't believe you are this stupid. You are paying no attention to what I have said. You're a disgusting creature of habit. Grow up, little ape.

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God didn't come and tell me that I am. The world didn't come and tell me that I am. Its like Sri Nisargadatta said "What is mine is mine and was mine even when God was not". Just little thing called 'I'.

You have become honest with who you are? Really? All I see is some guy trying to feed me some middle eastern beliefs which haven't arisen from his own experience. If you truly did recognize this 'I' as "bullshit" then you'd be enlightened right now. Why are you still a seeker?]

Middle eastern beliefs? Excuse me? Stop profiling me based on prejudice, I talked about a great deal more than "karma". It really sounds like you're just projecting the shit that you know you are (from how you used to be, before you were "passed the new age shit").

Give it up, Intel. Hve you ever met a mentally challenged person? Someone with downed syndrome, maybe? No joke, your mind is to theirs as mine is to yours.

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Thats true, a different mindset, yet still trapped in the mind. You haven't escaped samsara yet my friend.

Never claimed I have. Is that some kind of argument against my defense against your original argument that my first post was rubbish? You're all over the place trying to point out flaws in ME rather than flaws in particular argument relating to specific points.

Do the world of intelligent people a favor and take a vow of silence, ok? Please.

Matthatter · 12-11-2007, 10:14 PM

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You have become honest with who you are? Really? All I see is some guy trying to feed me some middle eastern beliefs which haven't arisen from his own experience. If you truly did recognize this 'I' as "bullshit" then you'd be enlightened right now. Why are you still a seeker?]

HABIT/KARMA! Damn. Does your fly-like mind exist merely to test my patience? One can understand the invalidity of "I"ness while still suffering (from it), because one's patterns of thought have been so grounded in the context of that "I"ness. How could you be serious in that claim? Please, don't answer that. It would be no more than a (more) complicated grunt, anyways.

Intel · 12-12-2007, 04:27 AM

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Just because you jumped into New Agey stuff when I mentioned "Ego", and ran with all that, doesn't mean I'm a "new Ager". When are you going to see that you are the prejudiced one? You're the one that just pasted a couple of quotes from "masters" because you couldn't make a decent argument on your own.

To be honest I don't care what label you put on yourself, all I know is you're a bullshitter.

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You're all over the place trying to point out flaws in ME rather than flaws in particular argument relating to specific points.

My posts are all over the place because your logic is all over the place. I'm just pointing this out, and I don't mind going off into seperate arguments because your original post was a joke. It was trash, not worth my time. Jeuan said all that needs to be said on the matter.

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You're a disgusting creature of habit. Grow up, little ape.

Since you haven't yet broken the chains of karma I guess you'll want to split a banana with me?

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Hve you ever met a mentally challenged person? Someone with downed syndrome, maybe? No joke, your mind is to theirs as mine is to yours.

So you don't derive your sense of self from a particular race, just your 'superior' intellect. But no no, thats not ego.

You should stop beating off so much, its melting your brain. Find yourself a girlfriend, get married and have kids, drink fine wine and be merry. Enjoy the rest of your sorry existence you call 'my life'. And as you're on your deathbed taking your final breath, know that the soft voice whispering sweetly into your ear "I win again, clown" is Intel.

winner · 12-12-2007, 04:54 AM

I don't think this works. While you are trying to express an outlook on something it is actually one sided. It down plays the 'caucasian' role and up plays the 'african' role. It is not insightful so much as it is opinionated, even though as an opinion one can see that you tried to reason it out. If you present it more in a manner as to what is good and bad on both sides, that would be the open minded way of presenting perspectives. More of a comparison positive and negative on both sides.

If you did that I think it would make for interesting reading. It's always good to read about things that are generally not writen about.

You are using the words 'african' and 'caucasian' but it is clear your perspective is from a 'black' and 'white' perspective. And that kind of thinking goes along with a one sided opinion.

Know too that when you write about blacks and whites, it will quickly be interpreted as racism. So you must put out extra effort to say what you mean as clearly and understandably as possible. It takes a big open minded person to bring it off.

Keep trying

Matthatter · 12-12-2007, 07:59 AM

Thanks for the advice, Winner. I think you're right about a lot of those things. I was a little hesitant to go deeper into it, especially discussing ho I think one or the other is "good"/""bad"/(preferable in certain contexts), but I wanted to see if anyone would be interested, and not just call me a racist. This thread probably belongs in the discussion forum.

Intel. J

Matthatter · 12-12-2007, 08:04 AM

Intel,

If you had 1/10th of the self awareness (I never said I didn't have 'ego'; you're hysterically jumping to conclusions in desperate attempt to protect your self-concept) I have, you would realize that just about everything you do towards me is just a projection. You are full of nasty little conflicts.

Really, just stop. At this point you're just trying to point out that I have an ego, and I am subject to karma, because you're hurt. But I never denied any of these things. I may have insuklted you, but I have done it for just reasons, and I have been reasonable in my responses to you. You've just been a mess of drunken finger points.

Matthatter · 12-12-2007, 08:07 AM

Winner,

I also wanted to say that I think you were right about me up playing the "african". After all, this post was inspired after a few days of watching a collection of MC's. I prefer the "flavor" of a talented black emcee.

Intel · 12-12-2007, 09:06 AM

Your the one that brought Karma into this, and now your trying 'flip the script' on me and act is if I instigated your rabble. If what I do to you is a projection, then the garbage you talk about being having a superior intellect to mine is only a projection. But what does it matter because nothing is real right? Don't answer that.

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If you had 1/10th of the self awareness (I never said I didn't have 'ego'; you're hysterically jumping to conclusions in desperate attempt to protect your self-concept) I have, you would realize that just about everything you do towards me is just a projection.

The fact is that you criticize me for 'trying to protect my self concept' when you're doing the same thing. Your ego feels superior to me and thus makes itself seperate. You contradict yourself at every interval. You've got to be the biggest bullshitter ever to walk planet earth.

I'm hurt? No friend, i'm just joking on you because you're a clown. Come on man, go sit down, sit down, just....just....go sit somewhere and think about life, think about where your at in life.

lin · 12-12-2007, 10:27 AM

"Caucasian" versus "African" aren't you kind of mixing metaphors there?

Three are caucasian africans. There are blacks who are not African.

All this apart from the hazy generalities of the piece itself.

winner · 12-12-2007, 11:57 AM

I think you are right about this being on the 'debate' forum. It is a controversial subject and as I see from the previous post it is the topic itself that is being discussed.

This is not a work of nonfiction material that's been placed on the forum for 'writers critique'.

JohnN · 12-12-2007, 02:37 PM

that whole article, didn't make much sense. Not scientific, no logic.

Matthatter · 12-12-2007, 05:55 PM

Intel, I'm done with you. I didn't een read your last post, why bother? You haven't made one decent argument about anything yet. You can repl to have a last word or whatever if you want, but I'm done wasting my time on someone who emotionally reacts to the words rather than trying to understand how I use them. You're hopeless to understand my thoughts right now.

Lin, I tried to make it clear that I was talking about Caucasians and Africans in general. Maybe it would have been better to use "Black" and "White", but there would still be exceptions.

John. It wasn't supposed to be scientific, and it was logical. You're just not intelligent enough to do your part of the work (reading my words carefully).

I guess I shouldn't have made this kind of topic on a forum where most people are wannabe writers, not true thinkers. That was my bad. I've had enough of people butchering my words because they're unable to properly interpret them. Words aren't real people, you use them to understand a message. Not the other way around. Cattle.

Real writers are seers. All I see her are a handful of people with above average intelligence (completely spoiled by bloated egos).