Thread: Poetry for beginners.

(And a little bit of a few other things besides)

To begin at the beginning, for beginners. There was the story, the story of the tribe, the story of the hero, the true story and the myth, and it had to be remembered. I am talking about England, not Greece or Rome or China, nor Japan. I am talking about a land that had suffered invasion and enslavement, warfare and colonisation.

The Romans arrived, then left, then came waves of Saxon and Danish invasion. The Irish slave markets were some of the largest in the world, exporting mainly to Africa.

The country was starting to achieve cohesion and a language of our own was emerging, when the Normans arrived. It’s earliest writings became obsolete. Now those who wrote wrote French, or Latin. If it was in English it was of the common people and had to be remembered.
When you want to remember something, a whole story, there are certain things that you base it around. There are key facts, and there is a certain flow, a rhythm. Each time you tell it, or hear it told, it is slightly different; the same tale, but with a different turn of phrase or trick of sound, if these are good they get remembered, incorporated and included next time round.

A man who lives by remembering like this acquires a facility, an ability to create and recall thousands of lines. The Anglo Saxon bards, who came before English, used lines with a certain rhythm and each line held three words in certain places that started with the same sound. In the formal French poems the Normans brought with them they used rhymes at the end of lines. Good tricks like that were not ignored, but incorporated into the people’s poetry. We had alliteration (using the same sound), rhythm, and rhyme.

Let’s jump to about 1500, when things had calmed down a bit,

The Normans had been rough on any rebels, They scrouged the Danish North, killing all animals, destroying all buildings and crops, and enslaving the population. But that was four hundred years before and they had unified the state,
Black Death arrived about the same time as the climate changed for the worse in the 1300’s, and by 1400 the population was probably less than half of that a hundred years before.

But that had led to political and agricultural reforms, by the time the climate got back in line and the crops weren’t rotting, there was lots of land for everyone, they were relatively rich and free, and poetry was getting established a bit, not just for bards remembering. People were starting to write for pleasure, not just for business.

The Earl of Surrey had been studying Latin and translated an epic poem into English. The Latin original was written in, ‘The heroic line’. More of this later.

The Romans worked in syllables, or silly bubbles as ash somers calls them.

A syllable is a single vowel sound and the consonants around it. The vowels are a, e, i, o, u and sometimes y so sil / ly / bub / bles is what it looks like broken up into them.

Remember I said single vowel sounds, so soap and soup are single syllable words, because the two vowels only make a single sound. So are stare and site, because although the ‘e’ on the end changes the vowel sound, it has no sound itself, look, stare-star, sit-site, all single syllable words.
Sometimes, with a word like ‘rabid’ it is difficult to decide where the two syllables separate, is it ra-bid or rab-id? It doesn’t really matter, It is two syllables

To practice with syllables or to look at syllables being used visit the (un)-holy Haiku thread or the cinquain thread, (I give the links below).
Haiku is a form of Japanese poem. In its English form it has five syllables in the first line, seven in the next and five again in the last (There are a couple of other things, but I am talking syllables right now).

Cinquains are five line poems, invented by an English poet as an English version of a different Japanese form. They have two syllables in the first line, four in the second, six in the third, eight in the fourth and two again in the fifth and last
.
And here I am going to stop for a bit I will come back to the Earl and his problems translating soon.

Haiku thread:-
http://www.writingforums.com/poetry-...challenge.html

Cinquain thread:-
http://www.writingforums.com/poetry-...-cinquain.html

hi, i read your essay and i think this is a really good idea, and i think i know where you are heading with this (regarding concepts of rhythm in the english language, or maybe i'm wrong). anyway, i noticed some information was lacking, perhaps you mean to come back to it later, in which case i mean no disrespect. i really do like this idea, and i too am fasinated by the history of poetry.


To begin at the beginning, for beginners. There was the story, the story of the tribe, the story of the hero, the true story and the myth, and it had to be remembered. I am talking about England, not Greece or Rome or China, nor Japan. I am talking about a land that had suffered invasion and enslavement, warfare and colonisation.

The Romans arrived, then left, then came waves of Saxon and Danish invasion. The Irish slave markets were some of the largest in the world, exporting mainly to Africa.


it might be a good idea to provide your reader with some kind of time frame regarding the above events. My knowledge of european or british history is rather weak, so you may want to check my facts. I believe the romans retreated from the region in around the 400s (?). also, I’m not sure how the irish slave markets are significant to your subject here, perhaps you can elaberate more.

The country was starting to achieve cohesion and a language of our own was emerging, when the Normans arrived. It’s earliest writings became obsolete. Now those who wrote wrote French, or Latin. If it was in English it was of the common people and had to be remembered.
When you want to remember something, a whole story, there are certain things that you base it around. There are key facts, and there is a certain flow, a rhythm. Each time you tell it, or hear it told, it is slightly different; the same tale, but with a different turn of phrase or trick of sound, if these are good they get remembered, incorporated and included next time round.


I believe you are speaking of mnemonic devices, this might be a good term to include here

A man who lives by remembering like this acquires a facility, an ability to create and recall thousands of lines. The Anglo Saxon bards, who came before English, used lines with a certain rhythm and each line held three words in certain places that started with the same sound. In the formal French poems the Normans brought with them they used rhymes at the end of lines. Good tricks like that were not ignored, but incorporated into the people’s poetry. We had alliteration (using the same sound), rhythm, and rhyme.


Here, you may want to mention such works as “beowulf” and “the song of roland” which use the aliterative devices you mentioned. As I understand it, old english aliterative verse generaly held four beats per line (four aliterations), two in the first half-line, and two in the second half-line. You could also provide a sample or two of this technique for your readers

Let’s jump to about 1500, when things had calmed down a bit,

The Normans had been rough on any rebels, They scrouged the Danish North, killing all animals, destroying all buildings and crops, and enslaving the population. But that was four hundred years before and they had unified the state,
Black Death arrived about the same time as the climate changed for the worse in the 1300’s, and by 1400 the population was probably less than half of that a hundred years before.

But that had led to political and agricultural reforms, by the time the climate got back in line and the crops weren’t rotting, there was lots of land for everyone, they were relatively rich and free, and poetry was getting established a bit, not just for bards remembering. People were starting to write for pleasure, not just for business.

The Earl of Surrey had been studying Latin and translated an epic poem into English. The Latin original was written in, ‘The heroic line’. More of this later.


I’m not sure, but I think you are refering to henry howard, and the poem he translated was “aeneid” by virgil. This also might be a a good place to talk about the adaptation of the sonnet into english literature, and the use of meter

The Romans worked in syllables, or silly bubbles as ash somers calls them.

A syllable is a single vowel sound and the consonants around it. The vowels are a, e, i, o, u and sometimes y so sil / ly / bub / bles is what it looks like broken up into them.

Remember I said single vowel sounds, so soap and soup are single syllable words, because the two vowels only make a single sound. So are stare and site, because although the ‘e’ on the end changes the vowel sound, it has no sound itself, look, stare-star, sit-site, all single syllable words.
Sometimes, with a word like ‘rabid’ it is difficult to decide where the two syllables separate, is it ra-bid or rab-id? It doesn’t really matter, It is two syllables

To practice with syllables or to look at syllables being used visit the (un)-holy Haiku thread or the cinquain thread, (I give the links below).
Haiku is a form of Japanese poem. In its English form it has five syllables in the first line, seven in the next and five again in the last (There are a couple of other things, but I am talking syllables right now).

Cinquains are five line poems, invented by an English poet as an English version of a different Japanese form. They have two syllables in the first line, four in the second, six in the third, eight in the fourth and two again in the fifth and last.

I believe that is incorrect, the cinquain was invented by an american woman, I forget her name at the moment, in the early 1900s. but you might want to look that up


edit: ah found it, her name was adelaide crapsey

You have jumped ahead of me a bit. Yes it was the Aeneid, and I originally thought of mentioning Beowolf, and Alfred's translation's, but I am aiming at people who are absolute beginners at poetry, so I wanted to keep it as simple as possible and include a bit of other things, hence the history and slave markets, they also show what a state things were in, with not much time for culture for most people.

You are also dead right about Adelaide Crapsey, she was American, when I said 'English poet' I meant one who wrote in English rather than referring to her nationality, but I could certainly have been clearer.

As I understand it, old english aliterative verse generaly held four beats per line (four aliterations), two in the first half-line, and two in the second half-line. You could also provide a sample or two of this technique for your readers

You could well be right about the four rather than three in Old English, it is a form adapted from Anglo Saxon, which is Germanic and a different language and I can't find my reference right now. I am not sure examples would help though, even Chaucer (1340-1400), who was writing in English by that time, needs a dictionary to translate all the archaic words


I am deliberately trying to avoid terms like 'mnemonic devices', they are reminiscent of text book learning which has put a lot of people off finding out some really useful and interesting stuff. That's why I embrace ash's term "Silly bubbles", it makes it a bit more 'user friendly'.

The Romans went in the 420's, by 500 Saxons controlled the Eastern side of England, with Romano Celtic pockets left in places like London, and the Irish slave markets were getting well established; Boewulf came over with the Angles about this time, but got written down about 700. Christianity had arrived in two directions during the 600's, from Rome in the South and East and from Ireland in the North and West, then in the 700's the waves of Danish invasion came. By this time Islam was established in North Africa, providing a ready market for slaves and coastal areas were pretty well emptied of their population, This is also the time of King Alfred, who translated Bede's Ecclesiastical history and Orosius 'History of the world' and conceived the idea of a National history in "The Anglo Saxon Chronicle". He then went on to rescue England by the military defeat of the Danes, a truly outstanding figure. Early poetry was mainly concerned with the myths the Germanic tribes brought with them or with the stories of the new Christianity, it was a way of telling a tale. The Danes put a stop to most of that, and modern poetry really begins with Chaucer, who wrote more than the Canterbury Tales. He is still telling stories with his poems though, Troilus and Cressida, which is a love story from the Trojan wars and "The Legend of good women" which is a history of women who suffered for love.

I don't know if the Earl of Surrey was Henry Howard, Howard was certainly a noble family name. The point of introducing him is that his translation was the first use of blank verse and I want to go on from syllables to feet, metre and meter and formal structures like the sonnet, but I am wary of introducing too much too fast and overwhelming people, I want to take it in slow, easy stages. with plenty of other background to make it digestible.

I love the idea of this, Olly. It's a fascinating study and I, for one, am looking forward to your next installment.

"You have jumped ahead of me a bit."

sorry, i didn’t mean to get a head of you, i just enjoy these kinds of conversations

"You could well be right about the four rather than three in Old English"

actually, i think you’re right. i went back and read some translations by michael alexander, and beowulf (my copy is the seamus heaney translation), and i’m seeing the variation lean more towards three beats per line. i’m not sure if that has something to do with issues of translating… either way.

i understand your concern about providing examples, perhaps you could write some of your own, just a stanza or two. i still feel samples will help readers gain a better understanding of the technique.

anyway, like gumby, i eagerly way for your next installment

Here is the next bit, I would like to make it clear that I have not been reading about poetry for long. A lot of what I read was hard work, and a lot of it is not in here. I am trying to make this a sort of “Poetry light”. Those of you who are informed, please correct me if I get it wrong, and bear with me if I miss bits out. I may return to them later.



How about some poetry?

After the deeth of Tholomee the king,
That al Egipte hadde in his governing,
Or more present day,
After the death of Ptolemy the king
That all Egypt had in his governing

That’s Chaucer, he invented that form, it’s called ‘The heroic couplet’. There are ten syllables in the line in five pairs
.
This poem is called “The Legend of good Women” and this section is about Cleopatra, daughter of Ptolomey. The whole poem is about “Heroic” women, that’s where the first bit of the name ‘heroic couplet’ comes from. Lots of people since have used it for “Heroic” tales as well. Some sorts of line suit some sorts of poem, in general terms, there are always exceptions.

A couplet is when two lines of a poem that are next to each other rhyme. So, to summarise, a poem that is written in heroic couplets has ten syllables in a line in five pairs, the lines rhyme in pairs and it is likely to be about some heroic theme.

Chaucer lived from 1343 to 1400, do you remember I said I would come back to the Earl of Surrey? Well, about a hundred years after Chaucer he wanted to translate an epic poem from Latin into English.
In Latin the amount of breath it takes to say a syllable is important, a syllable that takes more breath is called ‘stressed’. In the original Latin this poem was written in hexameters, that is in six sets of syllables (A set of syllables is called a foot). Each foot is based around a stressed syllable, or put another way each set has one syllable that takes more breath.

Hexameters don’t work very well in English, they are too long, one tends to run out of breath. Surrey needed an English equivalent.

As I said, the group of syllables around a stressed syllable is called a foot. The simplest Latin foot is one unstressed syllable followed by one stressed, it is called an iamb, and a line made of iambs is called iambic

Five iambs to a line works well in English, They are just about one full breath. A line of five feet is called a pentameter. If those five feet consist of ten syllables split into five pairs to make five iambs it is an ‘iambic pentameter’. Everyone knows the name. There is a reason for that, most of our great poetry is written with them as its base, though not always in every line.

English is not Latin, syllables are not simply stressed or unstressed, there are many shades of stress. When English is forced into the Latin form of alternating stress it becomes monotonous.
dee Dah, dee Dah, dee Dah, dee Dah, dee Dah
Surrey was cosmopolitan, he had lived in France, he was translating poetry from “The Classics”, the source of ‘real’ culture in his day. He pushed and shoved his English into the awkward mould. He made regular iambic pentameters, and lost something lyrical. It’s like a teenager in a tuxedo.

Try tapping your fingers in time with the beat of it, one soft one loud, one soft one loud, and so on.

“They whisted all with fixed face attent,
When Prince Aeneas from the Royal seat
Thus gan to speak: O Queen, it is thy will
I should renew a woe cannot be told!
How that the Greeks did spoil and overthrow
The Phrygian wealth and wailful realm of Troy.

HEY! Wake up! See what I mean, the rhythm lulls, distracts you from the sense of it, so why did the form become so popular?

One of my favourite authors, Fey Weldon, once described English literature as being like a city, as you wander through it you will find many districts.

There is a formal district of well kept town houses in squares where people visit and take afternoon tea.
There are disused graveyards filled with tumble down sepulchres and ghostly apparitions.
There is a red light district where one may experience pleasures of the flesh presented for profit.

And many more, old, new, commercial, criminal, rich, poor. But up on the hill, dominating everything with its sheer bulk, size and power stands Castle Shakespeare.

Surrey had taken Chaucer’s heroic couplet and freed it from rhyme. That is why it became known as “Blank verse”, blank = without rhyme. Shakespeare took ‘one step beyond’ (cue “Madness” voice), he coupled stress to meaning, and being him did it well, I’ll come along to that.

Side Note: You may be interested in Arnaut Daniel and other Occitan Troubadors, early romanticists that later poets such as Alighieri and Pound thought of as masters. Great info in reading about them, colors the whole form poetry setting. Well done here btw, great topic, great reading. Keep it up!

//Sy

I am really enjoying this Olly, I think you are putting just the right touch to it, making it interesting and not a dull recital of facts.

I agree, Olly this is good stuff. If you''ll permit me, I'd like to go back to the Normans for a bit.

It is true that they spoke French, but it was a version of French very different from the French spoken in France. In fact many language scholars use the term Norman French to distinguish it from French. Now, while William was conquering England, English was conquering Norman French. There were just too many English speakers and to few Norman French speakers. In little more than 100 years the English spoke English.

Now here is the wonderful quality of English. It easily takes words from other languages but still stays English. Why? Because the rock hard base is Anglo-Saxon. English has the world's largest vocabularies and less than ,5 percent is Anglo-Saxen, but that small percentage makes up abopt half of all ghe words we speak and write. Thee cement of our language. In, a, and, of, out, he, she, is are, was, were, the, are all Anglo-Saxon words. Those, and others like them, are what holds English together.

There is really not a lot left of Norman French in the English Language. Most those remaining reflect the Norman's opinion of upper class: chef is Norman, cook is Anglo-Saxon, swine is Norman, pig is Anglo-Saxon, and so on. Further, most of our cur "durty" words are Anglo-Saxon and have their more polite Norman equivalent.

Enough I think. Keep this thread going.

How did I miss all this?