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Best Seller
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 678
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An Interview with Jon Ims
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BIOGRAPHY :
During a trip to Nashville in July, BSA member Jim Bowley had a chance to visit with one of his mentors, veteran Music Row songwriter Jon Ims. In a virtual stream of consciousness exchange, Jon expounded on the importance of being a student of songs and songwriters; on the marriage of craft and soul when writing for the marketplace; on the joys of the Kerrville Folk Festival experience; and on the mantra of every Music Row songwriter worth his or her salt: "Angle is everything".
Jon Ims has been writing and performing his songs for over thirty years. He is the writer of Reba McEntire’s #1 hit "Fallin’ Out Of Love" and Trisha Yearwood’s #1 hit "She’s In Love With The Boy", which was named BMI’s Song Of The Year in 1992. He is a past recipient of BMI’s Robert J. Burton Award, Music Row Magazine’s Breakthrough Writer Award, and the Kerrville Music Festival’s 1978 New Folk Award. His songs have also been recorded by the Dixie Chicks, Confederate Railroad, Gary P. Nunn, Emilio, Chuck Pyle, The Seldom Scene, Hillman, Peterson & Rice, Bill and Bonnie Hearne, and Steve & Cindy Gillette, among others.
Jon is also a teacher who conducts songwriting seminars across the country. He has been a faculty member of the Kerrville Music Festival’s Songwriting School, The Telluride Bluegrass Festival’s Songwriting School, the Nash Camp School, and the Nashville Songwriters Association International Song Camps.
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INTERVIEW :
Jim – Among songwriters based outside of Nashville, there is a prevailing idea that the songs emerging from Music Row today are overly crafted, to the point of having all of the emotion drained from them. Do you see "overcrafting" as a problem or do you even buy into the notion that craft and "soul" in a song cannot peaceably coexist?
Jon – Oh, I think craft and "soul" can peaceably coexist in a song. At the same time, I would say that there are an awful lot of average, "cut-able" songs that are recorded all the time that don’t really meet that criteria. They may fit the bill in one area, but as you say, they may lack a depth of sincerity or soul. Writers are made to be very craft-conscious in this town - craft is part of great writing. Read Ernest Hemingway. He is all craft, and at the same time his soul is still in there. He wrote the truth, but he learned how to craft. So the marriage is possible. It isn’t always what we get and sometimes it isn’t always the criteria for songs to get cut. A song might sound as if it’s overly organized and that some of the soul has been squeezed out of it. But at the same time, it may have a very catchy quality to it because of a certain instrumental hook, for example, or maybe a repeated phrase that works well. It may not have been written with the intention of moving your soul and making you cry.
Jim – Speaking of craft, can you talk a little about the value of a rewrite? I particularly recall a story you once told me about the numerous versions of "She’s In Love With The Boy" that you had lined up on the floor of your house.
Jon – Yeah, I had 32 rewrites, and the 32nd rewrite is sitting in the Country Music Hall of Fame. It’s framed and it’s currently on the wall in the songwriter wing on the 2nd floor. It was written in black pen when I was sure it was finished. It took two pages of legal pad and it was the final draft of 32.
Jim – Obviously a great example of successful crafting…
Jon – Yes, but in Nashville, rewriting is taken for granted. Whether people write a song quickly off the top of their head and then go back and cut and paste, or whether they edit in their mind as they’re writing, they all rewrite. For example, Jim Rushing will write a line every twenty minutes. He’ll look out the window for twenty minutes and then he’ll write another line. He’ll go over all the possibilities in his mind or discuss it with his co-writer and when they reach exactly the right line, they move on to the next one. Other people will spill out the song very quickly and then maybe go have lunch. After lunch they may come back and look at the song and cut and paste or maybe do some reversals, after the song has had time to sit there for a while. Some people write the song as best they can and then they go home and play the work tape. Something may bother them, and so when they have an appointment with the same person two weeks later, they can go back and fix one or two lines or raise the melody in the middle of the chorus or change the intro to the second verse. Or maybe their publisher will mention the fact that the characters in the song are married and they can’t pitch it to five potential artists because the five artists that they would like to pitch it to aren’t married. So is there a way that you can write out that line so that Kenny Chesney doesn’t have to appear as if he is married? If you want to make the song more applicable to other people, you’ll attempt to rewrite that. So, songwriters in Nashville have said "yes" to writing for the market. They’re not involved in playing any ego-type, "me first" games. And I don’t necessarily mean that in a bad way, but the "art for art’s sake" folksinger who wears his badge of "I’m going to be myself, damn it, whether I’m going down like the Titanic or not" attitude is much different from the writer who signs with Tree Publishing to write songs that will get on the radio. When you sign that contract, you’re writing songs to try and get the next Faith Hill single. You’re writing for 5 million people. You are trying to entertain them and at the same time say something of meaningful import that is more original than the last guy. It’s got to be a different way to say ‘I love you’. And it’s got to be catchy and contemporary and it’s gotta make Faith want to sing it at the Grammy Awards in front of 10 million people. They’re looking for that song - are you going to write it?
Jim – The standard songwriter question is usually, "Which comes first for you - music or lyrics?" I’m guessing that for most successful songwriters, especially in Nashville, the answer would probably be "title first". Can you talk a little bit about why that’s an important modus operandi for beginning and advanced writers alike?
Jon – Yes. Let’s look at country music as an entity that has been existing commercially on the radio since about the 1950s. That’s 50 years’ worth of songs, 90% of which are relationship songs about men and women. About 5% are "lifestyle" songs, like going out after a long week and dancing on Saturday night, and maybe an even smaller percentage are in the realm of political or philosophical statements. If 90% are about relationships, then Harlan Howard, in his two or three thousand song career, probably already wrote every angle there is. Here’s the challenge: we still have to write a relationship song 90% of the time, because that’s what interests the public, but we have to come up with an original angle or an original way of saying it. That’s why the title and the lyrical angle are paramount in Nashville. You can’t just write, "You look so good, I really love you, baby". You have to write, "You Look So Good In Love". If you are writing a song about someone who has reached the point where they can tell their old love to get lost because they have now become powerful enough to break off the relationship, you need an interesting title, like "Here’s A Quarter (Call Someone Who Cares)". Naming the song "I don’t care anymore, baby, go cry to your mother" is probably not going to fly.
Because everything has already been written, the angle is everything. I see lots of songs from people in NSAI [Nashville Songwriters Association International] and from my own students, and the main thing that is lacking in their songs is an original, unique angle. They all write "I love you and I’m gonna love you forever". It’s not enough to do that anymore. So starting with the title is very important in establishing that unique angle. Having said all of that, in my own experience I have sometimes written songs with music first, first line of lyric first, or chorus first. Most people in Nashville, however, would come up with the title first and then they would write the chorus. Maybe you try to sing the title, so that it sits well in the melody. Figure out where that is and then maybe write the line before the title. After that, write the whole chorus, and then write the last line of the lift section or the preceding verse to tie it all up. Writing backwards. You can always figure out where to start, but in Nashville, you need to know where you’re going or else you write yourself into a corner and waste everyone’s time.
Jim – Since angle is everything, and unique angles and ideas can be hard to come by, I guess I can safely assume that when you find one, you don’t want to screw it up with a mediocre lyric. So what would you suggest for getting to the heart of an idea? For instance, how do you know when you’ve nailed it? Personally, I sometimes get that nagging feeling …
Jon – Well, the heart of an idea for a singer-songwriter would be when he knows he is telling his absolute truth. The heart of an idea for Lucinda Williams is when she knows she is saying it the way she experienced it and the way she feels it. On the other hand, the criteria for a commercial songwriter in Nashville - wanting to write a song that will be sung by an artist in the hopes of appealing to 10 million people - is very different. The criteria there is, "Does this ring true for the general public, and has this idea and this angle been written before?" If that angle has already been used, that will be a "no-cut" factor right there. You can’t get a song cut that says the same old, same old. You have to say it in a different, more unique way. So a songwriter in Nashville has to have a knowledge of 50 years of country music, or at least the last 15 years, in order to know what’s been written and how it’s been said, so that he can eliminate what has already been done and write something fresh. That’s a lot of backlogging and library work. I have personally studied the greatest hits of Roger Miller, George Strait, Merle Haggard, George Jones, Buck Owens, Hank Williams, Jimmie Rodgers, and then the greatest hits of everybody that’s been popular in the last ten years. There are tons of CDs in this house, and I have digested, for example, every George Strait album to find out what his image is, what kinds of songs he’s cut, what his favorite angles and ideas are, etc. That’s all part of saying "yes" to writing for the market. That’s part of the knowledge base you have to have, and that’s part of the knowledge base that people from out of town typically don’t have. They write a song and they think they’ve said this thing for the first time.
You know, there’s the story about the kid who goes to see Don Schlitz, writer of "The Gambler" among many others, and says, "I have this great idea, it’s ‘blah, blah, blah’". And Don says, "Well, I really liked that idea when Harlan Howard wrote it. But then when Russell Smith wrote it, boy, that was a good version of that idea! And then when I wrote it and had a hit with it five years ago, this is how I did it…" Well, the kid just shrinks realizing that his brilliant, original idea has been done by everybody in every generation! "She’s In Love With The Boy" is nothing more than "Romeo And Juliet". That’s all it is. But it’s a reworking of "Romeo And Juliet" in a contemporary atmosphere. It’s the archetypal story of the young girl who is in love with the rebel, and whose father doesn’t agree, but whose mother sees the good in the kid. It’s a Shakespearean play, it’s a movie that’s probably been done 50 times and it’s also a hit song. I’m not writing a new idea, I’m writing a new angle.
Jim – I know that you are a highly visible performer and teacher at the Kerrville Folk Festival in Texas. Talk a little bit about how you first became involved, how long you’ve been attending, and what rewards a writer can get from the Kerrville experience.
Jon – Well, I went to Kerrville for the first time in ’77. Mike Williams invited me down and got me up on the main stage to do one song. I did a pretty good job, so the next year I entered the New Folk competition and I thought I was going to win hands down - talk about my youthful arrogance - but I lost. I wasn’t one of the six winners and I was ashamed of myself and embarrassed and angry with the judges for not picking me. But man, did that light a fire! I worked all winter to become a better writer, and the next year I got picked and I won. If my memory is correct, it was Nancy Griffith who also won that year. Since then I’ve been on the main stage for 22 years in a row and have become involved in the festival in many ways.
As far as what it’s done for my career, it’s gotten me a national reputation in folk music as a singer-songwriter without even having albums out. It also provided a forum for me to pitch tapes of my songs to everybody from the Dixie Chicks to Mary-Chapin Carpenter to Christine Albert - who recorded "She’s In Love With The Boy" first, and subsequently got it to Trisha Yearwood - to Bill and Bonnie Hearne to Gary P. Nunn to…whomever. Many of these people who are well known down there have recorded songs of mine and have gone out and played those songs, and increased people’s knowledge of my music. The success of "She’s In Love With The Boy" was the direct result of pitching that song to Christine Albert, a good singer from Austin, who was trying to get a record deal. So, Kerrville can be a conduit to pitch your songs and get out there, and maybe even get as far as BMI Song of the Year…from a campground!
Another great reward has been getting a chance over the years to meet and pick with everyone from Tom Paxton and Peter, Paul and Mary and Tom Rush, all the way down to sitting around a campfire with Lyle Lovett and Hal Ketchum and Mary-Chapin Carpenter. Coming up with those people and setting a standard. The buzz was ‘You’ve gotta hear this new guy John Gorka" or "Wait until you hear David Wilcox or Nancy Griffith". People would hear what the standard was in contemporary folk music and what was new, and everything new was happening around the campfires at Kerrville. I’m not saying that other festivals aren’t relevant, because they are, but the Kerrville festival is especially important. It allows the very best songwriters to give up-and-comers an example of what good songwriting is all about.
Jim – Lastly, what are three or four of your most important tips for a developing songwriter?
Jon – If I were a developing songwriter, I would first learn who the great songwriters are and then I would learn their songs. One way is to be in a cover band that plays in bars - that forces you to learn other people’s songs. But if you have aspirations to be a commercial songwriter, then you owe it to yourself to learn all of the great commercial songs and what makes them great, from Motown to the Beatles to whatever. Find out who the greats are and don’t limit yourself to one genre. Don’t just listen to heavy metal or folksingers from Boston. Go all the way back and listen to everybody, starting from Hank Williams and Jimmy Rodgers. Listen all the way up to the beginnings of rock and roll, with artists like Chuck Berry, Elvis Presley, the Everly Brothers and Buddy Holly. Listen to the British Invasion bands, like the Yardbirds and the Rolling Stones and the Beatles. Listen to sophisticated stuff like Yes and Genesis and also listen to the light, pop stuff. Check out the Talking Heads and the whole era of punk and new wave music. Listen to all the great Motown artists, like Marvin Gaye, the Supremes, the Temptations, and Smokey Robinson and the Miracles. Listen to the Stax-Volt/Memphis sound of Sam and Dave and Otis Redding to get that kind of a feel. Go back and listen to your rockabilly roots, such as early Johnny Cash and Carl Perkins. Investigate every genre. Find out who was great and then begin to emulate them. Learn how to write any kind of song.
When it comes to the great lyricists, study the work of Oscar Hammerstein and Steven Sondheim in the Broadway musical genre. Check out the Brill Building songwriters, such as Gerry Goffin and Carole King, that bridged the gap between, say, Harold Arlen and Burt Bacharach and Hal David. Get the lyrics off the internet and study how they’re written. Study how ditties are written and light hit songs from the Beatles and the Monkees, for instance. Then, learn the work of more serious writers like Bob Dylan and Joni Mitchell, up through all the people that they’ve spawned, like Bruce Springsteen or Ani DiFranco, Also, check out the best of rap music.
In terms of craft and what you want to accomplish in your verses and choruses, the most important thing you have to do is to prove your title. That is, make sure that every section of the song reflects on the title and make sure it does it efficiently. If you want to study proving your title efficiently, then you have to go to commercial radio music because the 3-minute boundary forces you to be efficient. So, you look at the great songs that do that and that make sense. If it’s in the country field, you take a look at the 10 or 15 best country writers or you pick out your favorite albums by your favorite stars and then go look and see who wrote the songs. Back in Denver, I made a list and I found out that this guy named Don Schlitz wrote 10 songs I liked, and then this guy named Bob McDill wrote another five or six songs that I thought were brilliant. Bob McDill’s song "What Do You Do With Good Ol’ Boys Like Me?" was an enormous influence on my writing. Amazingly enough, that song is two places down from "She’s In Love With The Boy" on the wall at the Country Music Hall of Fame. He was my mentor and he didn’t even know it. And now both of our songs are framed and hanging on the same wall. So it passes down.
I’m part of a tradition of American songwriters and in order to be part of the tradition you have to have studied. Lyle Lovett has listened to every Texas singer-songwriter there ever was. Delbert McClinton has sung every Texas bluesman’s songs. They learned from people who came before them. When I see that desire in a client or student, then I feel confident. I’m not so confident when I see some hot shot kid who comes in thinking he’s really good and doesn’t have anything to learn. That tells me that kid is not going to grow much, and ten years from now he may be doing exactly the same thing.
The people that move along are the students. Steve Earle and Nancy Griffith were students of Townes Van Zandt. Lyle Lovett was a student of Walter Hyatt. Everybody has mentors. I’ve got five or six mentors that nobody’s heard of as well as people like Bob McDill all the way down to Bob Dylan. Remember also that Picasso had to take line drawing lessons from his father, and he had to paint realistic scenes before he, 20 years later, turned it all into the abstract, unique personal statement. So it’s not going to hurt your originality to learn every Jimmy Buffett song. It’s going to add to it because you will have digested the material and you will no longer be unconsciously influenced by these people. You’ll absorb what they do and use little snippets of whatever you like and turn it into your own thing. If you don’t do that, you’re going to be writing in everybody else’s style unconsciously. You are going to write songs that kind of sound like Springsteen or kind of sound like Jackson Browne, because you’re naïve and you’re not even aware of what you have said or done. So I say to consciously soak it all up! And be confident that you will emerge with your own style when it’s time.
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It"s just a phase 
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