POV Problem - Writers Forum

Wildcard · 06-23-2008, 11:49 AM

I seem to be having a little glitch here. I don't seem to be basing any of my recent stories from any particular pov. And all the critics are on my ass.

Is pov really that big of a deal? Can't a story still work without being from a particular pov, especially when there are oodles of characters involved?

Non Serviam · 06-23-2008, 11:54 AM

Depends who you ask. Lin will say no.

Me, I think POV is a fairly big deal, because we're writing for the TV generation and they get confused if they don't know where the "camera" is. Or at least, editors, agents and those responsible for manuscript acquisitions tend to believe that.

Wildcard · 06-23-2008, 12:03 PM

Video killed the paperback star.

valeca · 06-23-2008, 12:11 PM

Maybe the problem isn't your having multiple points of view, but rather a lack of clarity when switching from one POV to another.

lin · 06-23-2008, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Me, I think POV is a fairly big deal, because we're writing for the TV generation and they get confused if they don't know where the "camera" is.

Bad example. "The camera" is just an omnicscient third viewpoint.

I would say that watching something like Friends would condition people to accept the idea that the POV can switch around among a group of characters from line to line.

By "critics" who do you mean, Wildcard? A bunch of newbies who just read a book and are being swept up in this year's obsession--the whole "no head-hopping" POV nazi craze?

Valeca's right, you can lose people by moving around. But MUCH less so than the current fad would dictate.
All you have to do is make it clear who is talking or thinking. As parsimoniously as possible.

Don't let this flap you.
Look at published authors. You're going to find a lot more flexibility on this than the pinheads allow.

Alex Kostin · 06-23-2008, 12:20 PM

What's a pov???

lin · 06-23-2008, 12:21 PM

By the way, readers "get confused" a lot less than editors think they do. That "over-dumbing" is one of the problems with editors, especially the younger crop.

It goes along with the lack of respect for the readership that so many of them harbor. NOT a good attitude for a writer to have.

lin · 06-23-2008, 12:21 PM

Point Of View, Alex

It's a term that gets muddled in discussions. Many people, for instance, think that "present tense" is a POV, or that "third person" defines it.

Quote:

Betty looked at Alex and sneered. Fucking idiot rich boy, anyway. Alex read her mood and shook his head at Little Miss Socialist standing there in obligatory black and Doc Martins: same old bitch she's always been.

We are seeing Alex from Betty's point of view...and seeing her thoughts. Then we see her from Alex' POV and what he's thinking.

Notice something else. The point of view jumped in the same paragraph.
Were you confused? Did you desperately seek the camera angle and wait for a commercial do sort it out? Did you gasp in shock?

It's the overblown nitpicking issue of the year. I started hearing it bandied about 10 months ago, right after the Adverb Crusade chilled out. It'll give way to something else in a few months.

These things spread like cancer in the writing forum ghettos.

Wildcard · 06-23-2008, 12:30 PM

Okay. I'm posting a rough excerpt of something I'm working on. This is the one I've been recieving the most hassle over...

Wildcard · 06-23-2008, 12:30 PM

Paladin’s Warehouse

Friday June 7th, 3:35pm

A small bathroom. Three men. One naked and bleeding.

The latter is on his knees, head submerged in a tub of murky water. Gloved hands hold him firmly in place as he kicks and struggles and drowns. Water splashes onto cracked tiles and expensive suits. Cigarette smoke seeps through grinning teeth.

“Let him up.” Billy Raymond says. He checks his watch.

“Wha?” Goran Taitt responds. He glances at Billy. Water splashes in his face.

“I said let him up.”

Goran’s eyes question. His lips don’t. He wrenches the naked, kicking man from the tub and throws him up against a wall. The man slithers to the floor in a coughing, gasping heap.

Billy steps toward him and flicks the remains of a cigarette in his direction, intended for his face but it settles for a shoulder. He winces. Quickly brushes it away.

Billy reaches into his coat and pulls out a Glock 17. He points it at the naked man.

“Enough games,” he says. “What did you give em’?”

The man coughs violently, begins throwing up. He is pale, shivering and badly bruised. Mostly in his face. “I already told you,” he says, hawking out the words. “I didn’t give them anything.”

Billy smirks, lowers his aim and fires. The naked man’s kneecap caves in a mass of blood and lead. The sound of the exploding barrel is rivaled only by his scream. He gathers his leg, falls onto his side and starts to weep.

“What did you give em’ Joe? Don’t fuck with me.”

“Oh god…oh Christ…”

“I ain’t gonna ask again,” Billy says. He aims at the other knee. “You’re about to become a cripple.”

“Alright wait…please!” Joe throws his arm up. “You’ll still kill me if I tell you?”

“I’ll kill you if you don’t.”

Joe searches Billy’s steady gaze. He was a man of his word, always had been.

“I only gave them an address.” he says pulling himself to a sitting position.

“Which one?”

“Malibu.”

Billy turns to look at Goran. Goran smirks. He turns back to Joe. “You stupid sonuvabitch. How many?”

“I don’t know…four maybe five.” he sobs heavily.

Billy shakes his head. “You stupid sonuvabitch.”

Joe raises a pleading hand. “Please Bill. I was only tr-”

Billy squeezes the trigger. Joe’s head is thrown back against the wall. His slumps lifelessly to one side. Blood streams from a hole between his eyes.

Billy looks over the body, tucks the gun back into his jacket and walks out of the room. Goran follows.

There is a low metallic moan as the large warehouse door is shoved open. Goran steps out, looks up and down the vacant lot, nods back through the door. Billy follows, squinting against the sunlight.

“Bring the car around.” he says. Goran nods and jogs around the corner of the building.

Billy pulls out a cell phone, flicks it open and dials a number. Presses it to his ear.

“Yeah, I’m leaving the warehouse…” He listens. “…That’s right, it’s done. Listen, who’s taking care of Malibu?”

Another pause. An engine roars to life in the distance.

“Well you need to tighten up down there. That’s the one the piece of shit gave em’.” He listens. “Okay. Look, I gotta go grab my kids from school. Sally will have my balls. I’ll be at the club later…oh and tell Mickey to send some cleaners over to Paladin’s.”

He flicks the phone shut, pockets it. A black mustang pulls up at his feet and he gets in. There is a screech of tires and the car speeds off into the afternoon.

II

Club Malibu

Friday June 7th, 3:50pm

An office. A pudgy man sits on a leather sofa fondling a young woman. He whispers in her ear, she laughs.

A knock on the door.

“What?” Jules Ingram shouts. The door swings open. A tall, thin male enters.

“I just came off the phone with the boss. He says he’s sending some extra guys over for tonight.” Vinnie Dunham announces.

“Why do we need extra guys?” Jules’ hands are on the woman’s breasts, his face buried in her neck.

“Security measures he says.”

Jules waves a dismissive hand. “Alright, whatever. Get out, I’m busy over here.”

“He also says he wants Billy to oversee the operation tonight.”

“Say what?” Jules whips his head around and shoves the girl aside. The breasts are no longer interesting.

“Boss’s orders.”

“Since when do I need a fucking babysitter?”

Vinnie shrugs. “Just the messenger. You want me to get him on the phone?”

“No. I’ll handle this.” Jules struggles to his feet. The woman tries to help. He pushes her away. “That cocksucker thinks he can come down here and muscle me out? Well I say fuck him, and fuck that!”

He walks to his desk, a large mahogany antique, and snatches a phone. He starts to dial, hesitates, and shoots a glance at Vinnie and the girl. “What are you two staring at? Get the fuck outta here!”

They both leave.

seigfried007 · 06-23-2008, 12:53 PM

I don't think 'head-hopping' is so much a 'dumbing' issue as it often is an issue of sloppy writing. It also prevents readers from getting as close to the characters as they might in third-limited or first.

For instance, in the example with Betty and Alex, why do their impressions of each other matter at that moment? And wouldn't it be better to show how they feel rather than hopping into direct thought? If both are equally important to the story, surely there's another point in time to show how and why they ahte each other?

Malone · 06-23-2008, 12:53 PM

Seems good to me, if a little Resevoir Dogs/Pulp Fiction-ish.

06-23-2008, 01:16 PM

I thought it was tight and lively. But - rather than head-hopping, there didn't seem to be any 'head' at all. This is screenwriting formatted as fiction. To work, for me, as fiction ... I'd ...er... want more interior world. I was going to say ... you needed to give us more 'head'...

edropus · 06-23-2008, 02:09 PM

Aah. What's it matter? PoV this or that, I don't really get. I agree with Lin in that the average reader is much more capable of handling a quick PoV switch then they're usually given credit for. If it's really that difficult for them, they'll probably read more traditional books, and other aspects of your writing would probably lose them anyway. But that's probably a pretty small portion of people who go out of their way to pick up a novel.

I guess it depends on your target audience? Maybe it's more important if you're writing with the intention of having your story categorized with the great classics of literature. If you're writing for the average Joe reading a novel to pass time on the bus, it's probably not that important. Most readers, I would imagine, can handle PoV shifts, but might not necessarily know enough about writing to notice when it's nontraditional. Which means as long as it flows well and isn't interruptive, it shouldn't really matter.

Unless it gets ridiculously confusing, like changing PoV three or four times every paragraph, you're probably safe; as long as the story is engaging.

Malone · 06-23-2008, 02:15 PM

Quote:

you needed to give us more 'head'...

I love it when you talk dirty.