Debate Forum

[JosephB]

I have an idea for the Debate Forum:

Real debates have moderators. I think it would be cool if someone volunteered for each debate to stay out of it and moderate -- keep it on track and in a worst case scenario -- call in a real moderator.

In addition to the official guidelines:

Some attempt write well would be welcome. No email speak, and no "meh or *sigh*

Hard to control but -- try and be concise. These 13 paragraph rants are a bore!

Cut and paste is fine to a point. But these tit for tat, ping pong ball posts are just as boring.

Finally, some recognition that the darn thing has run it's course.

It shouldn't be sterile. The wise cracks and bon mot are fun and shouldn't be excluded -- if it's not personal. Attempts to be clever and use the imagination should be encouraged. The occasional random association would be fine.

Ultimately, I think it should be enjoyable, and provide everyone with an opportunity to improve his or her writing.

Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone, but I think we can all do better.

My one suggestion to the moderators -- perhaps be a tad more discerning when approving debates. This could be done without being draconian I think -- and usually could be handled with a suggestion that the topic be posted in the lounge.

[alanmt]

Originally Posted by JosephB

Some attempt to write well would be welcome.

Indeed.

[HarryG]

I'm afraid I'm against you on this one, Joseph B. We already have moderators and they do a good job, without stifling debate altogether.


I agree that some debates get ridiculous when posters get over-excited, lose their sense of humour and start name-calling, and generally losing it. It's easy enough to ignore those, and, quite honestly, can't we learn something about human behaviour from those silly posts? We don't live in a balanced world full of sane people, thank God.


I watched a televison debate recently, between famous, sensible, totally sane, highly educated individuals who stated their case calmly and expertly and I found it excruciatingly boring, and, judging by the viewing figures, so did most other people.


Unfortunately, the name-callers and over-excited individuals usually write poorly too, and that is annoying, I agree.

[Ungood]

I mean you ask for things like "Be concise" but 13 page rants are not good. You have to pick a stand and stop flopping around like that.

Pick one: You want people to be exact and concise and thus you will end up dealing with long ass debates that are exact and concise or let it be a bit fun, have some randomness to it and wise crack and deal with "meh" and *Sigh*

Also Moderators in "Real Debates" just tell the other team when it is their turn and point out the use of Fallacies or Insults. They do not limit the means, motive or method of debate that the people use.

And I agree about the "Darn thing has run it's course" perhaps an announcement of the "Winner" as well might be fun. I think that would be the best way to truly end a debate, when the people that are reading it just go and say "Sorry dude, but you lost man" and then perhaps a "Break down" of the debate, who won, why they won, who made good pints, what was good use of information and things like that.

I think doing that would "Stop" debates faster then anything, far more effective then moderators and it would help develop debate skills and teach people HOW to debate.

Which I think is your intention.

But whining about "Oh I don't like that" won't solve anything.

So here is my solution: I propose a "Call" point in a debate. This is when one of the people reading/following/getting annoyed by a debate will call out to the other readers to "call a winner" and then make a "Break Down" of the debate, what worked, what did not, what point was well made, what point was not, etc, etc, etc, Like a real debate. And that would end it.

It would give people reading the debate the chance to see what works and what does not work. It would also give the "Usual suspects" a chance to see how they are doing.

The problem with this is that it would or may turn into a personality contest where "Oh I just like JosephB" or "I like his stand as such I say he is the winner"

But, "Meh" that happens.

Ungood.

[JosephB]

I'm afraid I'm against you on this one, Joseph B. We already have moderators and they do a good job, without stifling debate altogether.

It's just an idea.

I'd like to see the quality elevated more than anything. I don't know that the moderators do step in enough and say the personal stuff is getting in the way.

I just saw someone call another member every name in the book. Repeatedly.

At this point -- I'm just throwing out suggestions and not promoting anything.

They do not limit the means, motive or method of debate that the people use.

They hold debators to the rules and format.

EDIT: This isn't about complaining about moderators. They do a fine job. I am making suggestions, that's all.

[Foxee]

I'd say do it as an experiment, Joe. Set out in the OP the 'rules' of the debate if they go over and above the WF rules in place (like when we set up and RPG...we create rules to run it by and set them out first) and it might fly to some extent with a WF member shepherding it along.

However, I'm a little pessimistic about it, to be honest. The debates have such a tenacy to go off the rails (usually by the 2nd page) and people are so passionate about their arguments (to the point of outright rudeness and flaming), that I'm doubtful that this can be done with out exploding the self-appointed moderator's head.
Otherwise, I think it's an idea with merit. I don't see where experimenting with the idea harm anything (other than your sanity)...really it would simply be someone who keeps their attention focused pretty closely on that thread.

I suppose if the whole experiment goes Chernobyl it can be locked and we can chalk it up to experience.

Disclaimer: I am only speaking for myself, here, this has not been a message from the entire staff.

[JosephB]

Originally Posted by Ungood

I mean you ask for things like "Be concise" but 13 page rants are not good. You have to pick a stand and stop flopping around like that.

Pick one: You want people to be exact and concise and thus you will end up dealing with long ass debates that are exact and concise or let it be a bit fun, have some randomness to it and wise crack and deal with "meh" and *Sigh*

No flopping. I did pick one, Ungood. I said concise, not precise. Concise meaning brief.

[Ungood]

The debate area of this forum is really nothing more then an Open Area where people can discuss "Hot Topics".

If you are seeking to make a formal debate area, and play by rules, then there should be a formal invite for two people to engage in a debate.

Each person gets a Introduction to state their stand and why they are correct. Then they get a rebuttal and then they get a closing.

Another means of debate IE: Political Debate. Is when each of the invited members is asked to express their views on a series of subjects as put from by a host or moderator.

In all of the debate styles "Open addition" is not allowed. Thus you are asking for rules to be put in place because you want to 'Contribute' but those rules by their foundation say that you are not supposed to just toss out your feelings or contribute with out bing expressively invited to do so.

BTW: I seem to have taken Concise slightly different then you did, to mean "Explain fully in as few words as possible" (Did you put links in your post? because I can't use them for some odd reason)

I am on other forums were they have a "Formal Debate" area and a "General Debate" area. The Formal is a Ghost Town, the General is no better or worse then here.

and I agree with you, I am on your side, some debates just go on and on and on.

Hence why I propose a "Call" that way the people that are following the debate can end it when they think it is starting to get to be "Too much", and it allows the "People that get involved" in the debate to 'Police Themselves" with out needing to be all "I am a mod you must listen to me" type ego.

I think that might be the best way to solve it, I propose that we start doing that.

Give it a try and see what happens.

With that Spirit - "I Call"

Ungood.

[ksol]

Hey, we should use this thread to debate the meaning of concise. How's about, "Explain fully in as few words as possible"? Does that clear it up?

[JosephB]

I think I covered that when I said "brief." I think that did it -- in as few words as possible.

[Ungood]

Fair Enough.

I'll try to be brief as I can.

You might have a very good idea here.

However:

You took a childish approach: You posted in another forum (Lounge) to complain about the Posters and Moderation in the Debate forum, as opposed to going to the moderators and the other posters that you had issues with.

This degrades you as a person which in turn devalues your proposal and what ever future things you might have to say.

Was that brief enough for you?

Ungood.

[seigfried007]

Ungood, this wasn't supposed to be a debate per the Debate forum--it was designed as a sounding board. Debate subjects have to be okayed whereas Lounge subjects don't. Hence, it was posted here.

:pats JoeB's back in sympathy:

[Sam Winchester]

Originally Posted by seigfried007

Ungood, this wasn't supposed to be a debate per the Debate forum--it was designed as a sounding board. Debate subjects have to be okayed whereas Lounge subjects don't. Hence, it was posted here.

:pats JoeB's back in sympathy:

Exactly.

Where's the debate, Ungood? Joe is suggesting a way of improving the debate section, not posting a subject for debate.

Sam.

[JosephB]

This degrades you as a person which in turn devalues your proposal and what ever future things you might have to say.

Was that brief enough for you?

No. It wasn't brief enough. You could have said "I just don't get it, and never will." That's only 7 words.

I think this is a pretty good indication that it's likely not possible to elevate the quality and enjoyability of the debate section.

But thanks Ungood for demonstrating this so well, so that no more time or effort is wasted. Sad.

[Ungood]

First off to everyone:

I am not debating this. debating in it's purest sense "I am right-your wrong"

I know what JosephB is trying to do. I have even said his idea has merit and might be a good a good idea. I never said he was "Wrong"

Secondly JosephB, do not assume I do not "Get it" even if I see a problem with it. That shows a complete lack of consideration and does not respect the effort and respect I have been showing you in every post so far. You could at least show me an ounce of maturity and not assume things about me.

This is especially poor taste when you are at the same time complaining about a decline in the "Quality of Debate"

I have found what you said to only support my previous statements and insult me. If you are going to make a move to improve the quality of a debate, you first need to start with yourself.

Now you are either capable of dealing with this in a mature civil manner or you are not. If you are not, then so be it. Debate on any level is not your place. If you can, then show me by continuing this discussion in a civil manner.

** Edit ** Added from here on.

All I said in objection was your execution was poorly done.

You came to the lounge and blasted this post.

First: Your suggestion to the Moderators, should have been just that.

A Suggestion sent to the Mods/head mod/Site Admin via E-mail or PM to request these things. Once you did that. Then perhaps the Mods and Admin who run this forum might find merit in what you have to say and want to discuss it with you or even have an open discussion about it.

(Go you - if that happens!)

Secondly: Asking people to "Step up and Notify a Mod that a Topic has hit the Crapper" is a great idea, but anyone should maintain a right to tell the mod "This has gone down hill". Mods can't read every topic and post, so if people as a whole tell them "You better check this out" then yes they will be drawn to that topic and check it out.

Asking people to step up to plate to assist the Mods in their workload is a grand idea. Asking people to step in for the mod is insulting to the mods.

You basically said "They Can't/Don't do their job" when you did that.

Now I am all for letting people know a debate or discussion has run it's course. I am all for it.

What do you propose (we the posters) can do about this to make things better?

Your execution of you tossed this out was very insulting and it seems "You don't get it"

I GET what you are trying to say and do, it's nothing new. You basically want a Formal Debate Area.

Ungood.