goodbye, all! - Writers Forum

mammamaia · 10-03-2007, 08:41 PM

...i'm sure a couple of folks will be happy to know i'm quitting, before i can be fired, as i cannot in all good conscience stop offering to help people here, as i've been doing for years and am now being ordered to cease and desist, or else...

...sadly, i'm afraid this post will be deleted by those who don't want what they've said here to be seen by anyone else, so i can only hope some of you see it first, and tell any others who might wonder where i went to email me for a copy of it... i have to accept that they have the ability to do that and perhaps feel they have the right... but that doesn't make it right, especially in a society of writers, to whom freedom of speech is a sacred and inherent right...

...i've loved being able to help so many of you here and so many who've passed through in all the years i've been doing this and will miss you all greatly... i'm forbidden by the staff to say you can come to me for help, so i'm not doing that... but if i could, i would...

...i won't be back to read responses to this message, as i haven't the heart to have to see that it's been deleted... and i'm forbidden to leave my email address here now, so i guess you'll have to track me down, if you want to write to me for any reason...

lots of love and hugs, maia

...pm received from valeca this am and my response [enclosed in '...']:

Quote:

Re: Advertising on WF
obviously, i can't buck you and selorian and have no way to know who else has been consulted and have or have not agreed with your decision as presented here... so i won't argue it or try to get you to change your mind/s... but i do, for the record, have to state what i feel are contradictions or at the very least puzzling mis-applications of the rules in this matter... please see same below... no reply is necessary, but clarification in some areas would be interesting, to say the least...

Quote:

I’m writing to inform you of the final decision regarding your asking members to email you for private help. While the staff has looked the other way and given you special privileges around this in the past, we can no longer do so in this matter, and instead are attempting to make WF a place where every member has equal standing, yourself included.

...then, why are you [all?] so against anyone offering to help people for free in a post regarding a specific need for help?... what on earth can be so terrible about being caring and helpful to each other beyond the site?... are you so afraid those helped by fellow members privately won't come back to the site, or what?... fyi, virtually all i've helped privately over the years i've been doing this are STILL members who still come to the site...

Quote:

By majority vote it is the decision of the staff that you are no longer extended the special privilege of offering your services outside of the appropriate areas. We are in no way saying you can’t offer them, just that you are being asked to confine them to the same places as every other member.

...meaning i [or anyone else] can't tell anyone in a post, that if they need more help than they can get on the site, they can come to me privately, right?... unbelievable!... especially since i'd been doing so for years and in many of my over ELEVEN THOUSAND posts, before selorian objected to it only fairly recently... and especially since so many of the thousands i've helped over the years and am still working with are still members here and my helping them has not diminished your membership in the least...

Quote:

I refer you to the Rules of WF.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rules
Advertising of any kind is prohibited. You are allowed to link to your site in your signature and if you have something to promote you may do so in the "Writers' Resources" forum, but only if it is writing related. Anything else will be considered spam and deleted.

This is not a new rule, and has been enforced for other members.

...and just how do you see my offering to help people on an individual and personal basis in personal notes to specific people in their own threads and/or replies to their posts, as being 'advertising'???... for writers, you seem to not be very good at word definitions in this area... an offer to help someone for nothing at all in return is not 'promoting' or 'advertising' anything but only an exercise in kindness and an all too rare sharing of one's abilities for free... not in the real world outside this site, anyway...

Quote:

If you want to offer your services, the Writers’ Resources would be a good place to advertise them.

...i am NOT 'offering my services'... i come here and to the other sites i monitor daily, only to be helpful to those who need assistance with their writing... and many of the thousands who are grateful for that help have come to me from here, as a result of my making a personal offer in a post here... so, you'll deny all here now and all newcomers that kindness, by your misinterpretation of your rules!... what a world you guys must live in!!!...

Quote:

Mind you, that doesn’t mean repeatedly advertise in multiple posts within Writers’ Resources. Simply make a (single) thread, provide the information members need to contact you, and answer any questions posted there you feel comfortable in answering. If someone wants to contact you for private help, they will. Alternately, you can add your offer and contact information to your signature where it might be more widely seen.

...how kind of you!... sorry for the sarcasm, but you seem to not have a heart, or a head that can get around the fact that what i do is not harmful to you, or to the site, or least of all, to any i offer to help... i am NOT going to 'advertise' as if i'm selling something, since i do nothing for money, hard as that seems to be for you to understand... to expect me to add my offer of free and caring help to a raft of folks who are selling theirs and other stuff is not only an insult, but ridiculous in the extreme...

Quote:

It’s not an outrageous rule, nor is it an outrageous or unfair request we’re making of you,

...sorry, but it is all of that... and i suspect if you put it up to the membership, you'd find most would agree... i realize you don't dare do that, so don't bother telling me why you 'can't'...

Quote:

and I ask that you please respect the decision of the staff

...as it's an ironclad edict, of course i will abide by it, but i can't 'respect' it...

(

Quote:

as well as the individual staff members) and not make snide remarks on the boards regarding them or their decision.

...nothing i wrote was against your rules and can't legitimately be considered to be, but i guess you can go ahead and delete anything you don't like, since you have the power to do that... makes this place more like a dictatorship than a friendly place for folks who enjoy the benefits of freedom of speech, though...

Quote:

In light of your recent posts, though, I do feel the need to point out:

Quote:
We reserve the right to delete comments which are deemed inappropriate.
(as stated in the Rules of WF)
...and does 'inappropriate' include merely disagreeing with you?... that was a rhetorical question, since i'm sure it does, and you've probably already deleted those posts...

Quote:
I expect as a near-septuagenarian you’ve had enough dealings in the adult world and have been around the block enough times to know what is and isn’t appropriate, so I won’t demean either of us by giving you a blow-by-blow of what ‘inappropriate’ entails.

...in any open and free society, that would not include what i wrote yesterday...

Quote:

Understand that this is not an arbitrary decision and has, in fact, been discussed at great length, and that it is being applied and enforced forum wide, not just to you.

...and is there going to be an announcement to that effect?... telling all the members that no one can ever offer to help another member with anything, unless they do so on the site?... and they can't even mention being willing to do such a good deed or they'll get banned for life?... do you realize how ludicrous that is?... is that really what you want this site to be?... a concentration camp where no one is allowed to do anything for each other beyond your coils of barbed wire?...

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In closing, I would also remind you that WF does not, nor ever has, recommend anyone, yourself included, give out their private information including email addresses, as is shown (once again) in the Rules of WF.

Quote:
We also always advise you to keep your private information private. Do not share your email address, phone number or other private information with anyone you don't know or trust. Once you do you can't "take it back" so be careful who you share your information with. Our advice is do not share your private information!

...when did 'advise' and 'recommend' become an edict or a ban?..

Quote:

I am willing to discuss the decision with you (to a point).

...'to a point'... always a 'we can ignore/delete this' qualifier, huh?... sadly, by now i have to seriously doubt that my questions and observations here will fit within that 'point'... i hope you will someday realize that you've just lost the most loyal and caring member this site has ever had... and that's not a brag, as i've been told that often enough by enough of the countless folks from here i've helped over the years, that i have to believe it's true... why would they lie?

m

Mallignamius · 10-03-2007, 08:58 PM

Well, this place won't be the same without you.

I hope a new dawn greets you on your next turn of your journey in the world.

Take care!

mammamaia · 10-03-2007, 09:26 PM

ok, so i did come back, to see if it would still be here!

... and am happy to see it hasn't been deleted... yet...

thanks, much, mal!... your friendly goodbye makes me feel a bit better... i'll miss ya...

love and extra hugs, m

valeca · 10-03-2007, 10:25 PM

If you're going to post PM's, it'd be best to post them in their entirety. If this is the route you've chosen, so be it, but I'd expected better.

Below is the original PM, complete with the omitted sections.

I wish you well, maia, wherever you go.

Quote:

Originally Posted by valeca

Maia,

I’m writing to inform you of the final decision regarding your asking members to email you for private help. While the staff has looked the other way and given you special privileges around this in the past, we can no longer do so in this matter, and instead are attempting to make WF a place where every member has equal standing, yourself included.

By majority vote it is the decision of the staff that you are no longer extended the special privilege of offering your services outside of the appropriate areas. We are in no way saying you can’t offer them, just that you are being asked to confine them to the same places as every other member.

I refer you to the Rules of WF.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rules
Advertising of any kind is prohibited. You are allowed to link to your site in your signature and if you have something to promote you may do so in the "Writers' Resources" forum, but only if it is writing related. Anything else will be considered spam and deleted.

This is not a new rule, and has been enforced for other members. If you want to offer your services, the Writers’ Resources would be a good place to advertise them. Mind you, that doesn’t mean repeatedly advertise in multiple posts within Writers’ Resources. Simply make a (single) thread, provide the information members need to contact you, and answer any questions posted there you feel comfortable in answering. If someone wants to contact you for private help, they will. Alternately, you can add your offer and contact information to your signature where it might be more widely seen.

It’s not an outrageous rule, nor is it an outrageous or unfair request we’re making of you, and I ask that you please respect the decision of the staff (as well as the individual staff members) and not make snide remarks on the boards regarding them or their decision. These people volunteer their free time, just as you do, to ensure that WF runs as smoothly as possible and try to make it a great place for writers of all levels. Lord knows it’s not an easy task, and none of us can please all of the people all of the time.

In light of your recent posts, though, I do feel the need to point out:

Quote:
We reserve the right to delete comments which are deemed inappropriate.
(as stated in the Rules of WF)

I expect as a near-septuagenarian you’ve had enough dealings in the adult world and have been around the block enough times to know what is and isn’t appropriate, so I won’t demean either of us by giving you a blow-by-blow of what ‘inappropriate’ entails.

Understand that this is not an arbitrary decision and has, in fact, been discussed at great length, and that it is being applied and enforced forum wide, not just to you.

In closing, I would also remind you that WF does not, nor ever has, recommend anyone, yourself included, give out their private information including email addresses, as is shown (once again) in the Rules of WF.

Quote:
We also always advise you to keep your private information private. Do not share your email address, phone number or other private information with anyone you don't know or trust. Once you do you can't "take it back" so be careful who you share your information with. Our advice is do not share your private information!
I am willing to discuss the decision with you (to a point). Feel free to contact me if you’ve any questions.

All my best,
valeca

lin · 10-04-2007, 02:43 AM

Oh, she'll be back...and keep posting her email and soliciting people's addresses and traumatizing newbies.

You watch.

You can't take anything she says seriously. Even her drama queen, don't cry for me Argentina act.

Those of us who actually manage to give a little advice here on the forum, where it belongs are bemused to find that you just can't help people without snaking them off into private.

She'll be back.

Non Serviam · 10-04-2007, 03:35 AM

Good Lord. All this over a rather politely-worded request to obey the rules while using this site?

Hodge · 10-04-2007, 04:29 AM

She'll be back. And she probably already has been since that last post. That's why she suddenly went into invisible mode so normal members can't see if she's on or not. But the mods can. They can also see if anyone with her IP has visited, too, so even if she isn't logged on they can still see her.

Eventually that pride thing will make her come back. For the sake of all who need her help, of course.

Kest · 10-04-2007, 05:19 AM

Bye bye

Isn't this thread about saying goodbye to her??

Writer Kitten · 10-04-2007, 05:44 AM

Writer flounces are probably the funniest of all.

Flounce, flounce and flounce some more.

JoannaMac · 10-04-2007, 05:52 AM

I don't understand why maia is being asked not to offer help. As it's not for money, how does it count as advertisizing? She's also old enough to decide who she gives her email address to, so what's the big deal? Why is what she does 'inappropriate'?

maia likes to be useful and lives on a tiny island helping people. She's isolated out there (which is of course her own choice) but helping other writers is how she keeps herself in contact with the wider world. It's interesting for her, useful for us, and harms no one. How is this inappropriate? Has anyone ever complained (apart from Lin)?

maia, I'll be in contact anyway, but it's shame we won't be seeing you on the forums anymore.

Non Serviam · 10-04-2007, 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoannaMac

I don't understand why maia is being asked not to offer help.

Well, she isn't, is she?

She's being asked to offer help either (a) over this messageboard--which we consider the best way, since several people could read her advice, and experienced writers could add their own commentary--or (b) in any other way she chooses, provided she complies with the site rules that we'd expect everyone else to obey.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoannaMac

As it's not for money, how does it count as advertisizing?

It's soliciting clients for a service provided off this site. One of the effects of that is to remove traffic--and writing advice--from our site. Do you see why we might have concerns?

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoannaMac

what's the big deal? Why is what she does 'inappropriate'?

Actually anyone can advertise anything on wf.com (within the normal boundaries you'd expect). We just ask you to confine your advertisement to your signature.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoannaMac

How is this inappropriate? Has anyone ever complained (apart from Lin)?

I'm afraid I don't think it's appropriate to discuss any complaints we may or may not have received about users in public. I think complaints should be private matters between particular users and site staff, and shouldn't be discussed in open forum.

Selorian · 10-04-2007, 06:29 AM

For sake of clarification, something can be advertised even if no money is required to receive it.

Advertise

~ to announce or praise (a product, service, etc.) in some public medium of communication in order to induce people to buy or use it: to advertise a new brand of toothpaste.
~ to give information to the public about; announce publicly in a newspaper, on radio or television, etc.: to advertise a reward.
~ to call attention to, in a boastful or ostentatious manner: Stop advertising yourself!
~ to ask for something by placing a notice in a newspaper, over radio or television, etc.: to advertise for a house to rent.
~ to offer goods for sale or rent, solicit funds, etc., by means of advertisements: It pays to advertise.

lisajane · 10-04-2007, 06:39 AM

So long, farewell, auf Wiedersehen, good night...

JoannaMac · 10-04-2007, 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Selorian

For sake of clarification, something can be advertised even if no money is required to receive it.

Advertise

~ to announce or praise (a product, service, etc.) in some public medium of communication in order to induce people to buy or use it: to advertise a new brand of toothpaste.
~ to give information to the public about; announce publicly in a newspaper, on radio or television, etc.: to advertise a reward.
~ to call attention to, in a boastful or ostentatious manner: Stop advertising yourself!
~ to ask for something by placing a notice in a newspaper, over radio or television, etc.: to advertise for a house to rent.
~ to offer goods for sale or rent, solicit funds, etc., by means of advertisements: It pays to advertise.

But how does any of this apply to what maia does?

Non Serviam · 10-04-2007, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoannaMac

But how does any of this apply to what maia does?

I did answer this question. Did you miss my reply?