galt

Here's an idea: What if someone reformed the English language so that everything was spelled as it sounds? Yeah, because everyone has trouble occasionally with spelling, and maybe if a few newspapers or authors started the Reformed English, it would catch on. What do you think? I will rewrite this paragraph using R-English. Here is the only rule for R-Engish: If a vowel says its name, such as the e in weeding, then it is capitalized; this way we don't confuse it with a word like wedding.
HEr's an ideu: Wut if sumwun rEformd thu English langwuj so that evrEthing wuz speld as it sownds? Ya, becuz evrEwun has trubl ucAzunulE with speling, and mAbE if a few newspAprs or authurs started thu REformd English, it wud kech on. Wut do u think? I wil rewrIt this paragraf uzing R-English.

Kane

If we switched to reformed English, I would assassinate you for thinking it up. =)

chaos

If we started using reformed English, everyone would sound like 12 year old AOLers on crack.

and I would kill myself.

__________________
Only in spiritual terror can
the truth
come through the broken mind.

~ W.B. Yeats

midlandsmuse

But which dialect or accent?

For instance, The queen says, "Haice" instead of house. I say "ouse" (lazy "h" in my dialect) whereas others would say, "harce".

And that's just one word. Other words would have multiple different sounds depending on dialects. Northern England and Southern England have the "r" sound difference. For instance here in the midlands and north we say "bath" in the south they say "barth"

See the problem?

__________________
Debate is dead

mammamaia

mm's point is a valid one... it can't work based on pronunciation... besides, what you propose is do bleepin' UUUUgly!

give it up and learn to live with it, kiddo... or ask for asylum in france, italy, or spain, where the language is more consistent and sense-making...

__________________
For 100% free writing help/mentoring:
www.saysmom.com

"You must BE the change you wish to see in the world." Gandhi

Ilan Bouchard

Or perhaps people could start speaking Latin. If nothing else, at least the grammar makes sense.

__________________
Ruthless comments encouraged!

galt

Yeah, okay, i c ur point.
I don't think Americans have such dialectical problems as the British. I say, if we adopt R-English, the British will have to deal with it because they started the convoluted spellings anyway.
We'd get used to it.
Neh.
Well, if no one would adopt R-Enlgish....maybe we could just stick with the good old-fashioned, convoluted, non-sensical, traditional phonetics of regular English, neh?

midlandsmuse

Really?

I think you do. Are you saying that every America says the word "nuclear" like Bush does?

Do people in the north speak exactly the same as people in the south? Do those in Detroit have the same southern twangs we hear in those from Texas?

All of these different accents and dialects are valid and if you want to spell as it is spoken you need to pick one.

__________________
Debate is dead

midlandsmuse

I did a linguistics course last year and from academic papers we had to study (I'd have to dig out the source) it turns out that over 80% of spelling in English makes perfect sense and is logical.

Also, the reason many American words are spelt differently (colour and color - being an example) is down to a guy called Noah Webster who tried to do exactly what you propose. What Webster failed to grasp was that he was reliant on one dialect (namely his own). Hence while there may be no difference in the pronunciation of "colour" and "color" if you listened to Webster there is a slight difference between those two words if you hear it said phonetically in Standard English (which is actually SE English - and you can blame a guy called Caxton for that)

What you need to understand is that English has 26 letters of the alphabet but over 70 phonemes. Therefore we don't have enough to go around. To do what you propose would need a brand new alphabet as well as brand new dictionaries, reprinting of every English work, reeducation of the majority of the people on the planet and everyone would have to speak in a single dialect. Let's not forget some dialect experts can actually denote which small village people live in (imagine that - telling if someone is from East New York or West New York just by listening to them speak - kind of destroys your comment about America speaking in one accent or dialect.)

So in answer to your question... no, reforming the language wouldn't work. unless you want to reeducate every English speaking person to speak your one true dialect and you'd struggle to do that in a small village... as for the globe... good luck.

__________________
Debate is dead

Kelhanion

Since in different languages the letters and phonemes are pronounced differently the reformation proposed by galt would mostly just mess things up for "the rest of us". I for example had hard time understanding the "reformed" version of galt's first post. I mean while in English letter "i" is pronounced like "eye", in Finnish it's pronounced as the vowel sound of "key".

And for no apparent reason whatsoever, here's the paragraph reformed according how it would be in Finnish (that is when a Finn reads it it sounds like the original English one).

Hiös än aidiä: wat if samvan rifoomd thö Inglish längvitsh sou thät evrithing wos spelld äs it saunds? Jea, pikoos evrivan häs trabl okeishönäli uith speling, änd meibi if ä fjuu nyyspeipörs or oothörs staatid thö Rifoomd Inglish, it wud käts on. Wat duu juu think? Ai will riiwrait this pärägräf juusing Aar-Inglish.


Even though that is somewhat close to the perfect way to write "English in Finnish alphabets", reading that aloud is 1000 times more difficult than reading normal English which I am used to.

__________________
The body is a prison for the mind. Still, only a fool would break out.
-Me

midlandsmuse

oh I should comment on this as well.

English is an old language. When it started being written it was a mish mash of dialects and accents from different nations and when it was first written there were no dictionaries to refer to.

Most writing was done in monestaries and records show how some monestaries had the same spelling but other the spelling deviated depending on who wrote that page. Some old books have the same words on different pages spelt differently.

The Codification of English really took off when Caxton brought the printing press from Mainland Europe. He was stuck with what to dialect or spelling set to use so used his own South Eastern English (SE English). But by this time spelling had become rather crazy and even the language was seperating itself. ONe classic example being southern England saying "eggs" and northern England saying "eyren". So if Caxton had been based in the NE of England chickens would be laying "eyren".

Also over time language has evolved and developed yet spelling hasn't always kept up. When we see silent "e" on the end of a word we see examples of this. So it's not the case that "we" started the "convoluted" spellings. It's a case that the language and spelling developed before the technology was available to enable dissemination of a set standard.

__________________
Debate is dead

Londongrey

galt,

If people have a problem with spelling then they need to learn, or they may be idiots in which case I couldn't care less.

Secondly please learn the history of the English language. You cannot reform the English language as that already happens over a period of time.

galt wrote:

'Well, if no one would adopt R-Enlgish....maybe we could just stick with the good old-fashioned, convoluted, non-sensical, traditional phonetics of regular English, neh?'

Is that the same non-sensical language that gives us the ability to express ourselves in many different ways?

What IS happening to the education systems???? Laziness with the English language is something that irritates me no end.

__________________
You are only as dull as the light in the room you occupy, everything else is just hearsay - Me, about five minutes ago.

Ilan Bouchard

Texas, Boston, and New York (this includes Manhattan, Bronx, and country), California, and just about everyone speaks differently. In fact, I had trouble reading your R-English paragraph because several of the words you wrote are pronounced completely differently where I live.

Not to mention English has reformed itself, and would slowly reform itself from what you're suggesting. Your "solution" would only last a few generations.

It might work if you were starting a new language, or trying to codify a non-written language, though none come to mind at the moment.

__________________
Ruthless comments encouraged!

Hodge

English is the bastard child of Germanic, French, Norse, and Gaelic. Four parents! English is indeed unique.

I love English—it's probably the most poetic and versatile of all the languages. Unlike most other languages, rules are fluid, context means just as much as the words themselves, and new words are easily incorporated.

It's a patchwork quilt.

__________________
Science

journyman161

I can't believe I got all the way through that & nobody even mentioned phonetic spelling!

Galt, there's been a movement around for a while aimed at getting phonetic spelling to be a standard, although Steven Wright asks, 'Why isn't phonetic spelt the way it sounds?'

It's failed pretty dismally, although it has a more recent ally that could do the job for it - advertising on TV, magazines, billboards etc. there's some atrocious speeling coming out through the media & kids lap it up. Ask teachers about their kids' attempts at spelling common words.

Learning proper english is extremely simple - take one egg, one sperm, mix & stir in a life in the middle to upper levels of any english speaking country & Voila! someone who can speak, read & write english. For the others? Tough luck, work at it & you should get there.

For those who would like to know the full extent of the problem... You think you know English?

__________________
*He has never been known to use a word that might send a reader to the dictionary - William Faulkner (about Ernest Hemingway)
*Poor Faulkner. Does he really think big emotions come from big words? - Ernest Hemingway (about William Faulkner)
*Thank you for sending me a copy of your book; I'll waste no time reading it - Moses Hadas
*He can compress the most words into the smallest idea of any man I know - Abraham Lincoln