The Backward OX

Another thread where everyone's sitting around complaining and no-one's doing anything.

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spider8

North End, Croydon, Barclays bank. I was in exactly the same place a couple of years back when something outside similarly happened. A couple of hoodies were stopped by a couple of white officers for searching. They resisted and a lot of black people in the vicinity began jostling the officers and complaining. Not just young people either but older people. The officers radio'd for assistance and got it (in droves) before there was any violence, but it really sounded like two tribes. This was related to me by an asian-staff Barclays woman when I asked her what all the police were doing because I arrived at the end. Maybe I'm wrong to bring colour into it but I do think theres a problem with black people and white police. I reckon the same thing happened with SamWin's article- The girl and others might turn out to be white in which case it's another lesson for me, and my experience is making me jump to wrong conclusions. All this talk of 'young people' and I think it's a racial issue.

Sam Winchester

No, but I've been on the end of a rifle butt to the stomach, and let me tell you, it hurts like a motherfucker.

I agree with giving the cops guns. Cops in this part of the world have no respect. Give them a .45, as Writ said, and while the respect won't improve much, it'll still give those little shits something to think about. They'll think twice before trying to beat the shit out of the cops.

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Kast13

That's cool, but I was directing my post to a certain individual who said a club and pepper spray are like a stick and salt shaker. Far from the truth, that shit sucks.

PS: and to the person earlier that said cops get respect for carrying revolvers, what cops still even carry revolvers? Think about it, pack of thirty people, you shoot one, things are going one of two ways and you only have a maximum of 5 shots left.

Mystery

Haha, I've seen it happen here, and I joined the cops and beat the shit out of the kids. I don't know what it is with UK police, but in Cyprus the cops are the law, no one likes them but you DO NOT fuck with them. They have no mercy. IF girls attacked them they'd break their jaws for being stupid, slam them with assault and put them in jail for a few weeks. The last time I saw an adult assault a cop they got smashed into the ground so fast it made me second guess ever trying to steal one of their hats. Cops here are trained and ruthless, as they should be.

On another note, England is becoming a shit hole faster than oil prices are rising in the US. I remember being in London in easter, and I was going down some popular metal shopping street in a London district where the guy at counter told me to come upstairs where they had what I was looking for(Adagio t-shirt) and tried intimidating me into buying some shit. I even had a couple of kids come and try to start a fight with me because I was drinking coffee(literally, they came up to me with that snobbish English thug accent and started asking me why I'm drinking coffee as rude as they could, trying to piss me off)

Long stories short: You don't intimidate someone bigger than you.

The problem here is that a baton and pepper spray require physical force behind them, they are a stoppable force, you can block a baton, or take a hit form it and retaliate, just like pepper spray. A gun thought? It's unstoppable. You take a hit point blank and thats it.

How many of those 30 people are willing to risk being one of the 5 shot in order to beat up cops for something pathetic like them asking a girl to pick up litter? Remember, one bullet, one kill, especially when you are trained to shoot.

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Writ-with-Hand

I dunno, you have a very valid point in a way, but on the other hand you kind of have to be a good badass or doped up person to shrug off a strike from these modern police batons. I practiced with and was licensed at onetime to carry the PR-24 and I have to tell you those things hurt like a mutha fucka. I gained a new appreciation for what Rodney King went through.

I have no experience with pepper spray but I've been told it works but has one huge flaw... some of it will almost always get back on the person who's spraying it.

I know they have a new form of pepper spray out in a foam form now. But if you have to tussle with someone you'll probably still get it rubbed in your face or eyes as well I would suspect.

This I have to make disagreement with. U.S. law enforcement are even trained not to believe this due to actual case studies.

One prominent example was a large gun shootout that took place between Federal agents and two criminals, one of which was a former U.S. Army Ranger. They shot those guys (criminals) up with plenty of rounds and they still kept fighting back (shooting). I'm not talking about the West Hollywood shootout either, with the armored bank robbers, this was an earlier case and the rounds actually penetrated the guys I'm talking about.

There is also a youtube video, one which I can't find, where a heavy weight boxer jumped on a cop, the officer shot him I think at least 5 times and the dude still was beating the shit out of him. I'm talking about the guy had the cop on the ground pounding him. The cop was armed I believe, with a 9mm semiautomatic pistol, as I believe all cops are in the U.S.

U.S. Federal agents used to be trained to utilize the "double tap" but now they are trained, at least to my understanding, to fire until the person drops. (I personally think this is overboard)




I wish I could find that damned video though. On a different web forum, a while back, a guy put it up as an example of something he was talking about. This guy is amazing in his knowledge of self-defense and survival, he's a former member of the redoubtable, famed, 10th Mountain Division of the U.S. Army. He has trained civilian law enforcement and military special forces as well in hand-to-hand combat. And the guy knows all about guns. He's in the martial arts community too.

alanmt

This is what comes of giving freedoms to the lower classes. They can't really handle them responsibly. You Brits need to clean your house.

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HarryG

What would you do if you were one of those police officers in South Croydon? A 15-year old girl drops litter right in front of you. You tell her to pick it up and she picks it up and throws it at you. She is one of a crowd of 30 such young girls.


What would you do?

Kast13

Call back up and throw fisticuffs 'till the street runs red with blooooooooooooood.

Writ-with-Hand

Pull my cock out and urinate on her leg.

HarryG

Apart from the pithy comments, it seems that everyone else feels the same way as I do. If I had been that law enforcement officer in South Croydon I wouldn't have known what to do. After all, it's only litter and they girls are only 15-years old.


Yet, somehow, I'm thinking of anarchy, is that a desirable state?

PageOfCups

Those three words alone explain why that happened. Now if it happened in the Lake District I'd be shocked.

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Mystery

You'd have to be a pussy to take one of those anywhere but a vital point on your head and go down. Swinging takes accuracy, and it's a basic human instinct to protect your face first, so good luck landing a solid knockout blow. And even if you do, that doesn't intimidate 30 people.

I got sprayed with it before, its like spraying deodorant into your eyes. Problem yet again comes with the fact that it doesn't intimidate 30 people. Especially since like you, they don't know how strong the effects are.



You are comparing armed criminals and heavyweight boxers to scores of 15 year old girls? great argument you got there...

People like heavyweight boxers have incredible stamina, if you've ever tried boxing in your life, you would know that the difference between the average boxer and average person's stamina and endurance is astronomical. Plus, there is muscle mass to consider here. Of course this is all solved by doing one thing, either shoot him in the face, or in a ball and socket joint. That will end his rampage in a second.

And returning to my argument, guns are a one shot kill, I'm not talking about you point and you suddenly take lives, I'm talking about the fact that most people understand the effect of a gun. It kills. You get one lodged in you and you are pretty much fucked. Most people will second guess even trying to piss off someone who's brandishing a gun and can kill you with the law on his side. Like I said, it's not the effect but the intimidation factor, are you willing to charge someone who can kill you in a single second without any effort? theres a big difference between pain and death.

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Writ-with-Hand

The PR-24 police baton is designated as a *lethal weapon.* Legally there are only certain areas on the body you can strike with it unless "deadly force" is legally warranted. Deadly force is warranted when your life or that of another's is in danger.

The strike areas of the body - at least when I was trained and licensed to carry one - were green, yellow, and red. The Arms and legs would be green but areas like the neck and head would be red zones. Red zones are those areas that you are only warranted to strike under deadly force.

You simply do not know what you are talking about with a baton like PR-24. I would say from doing a little Muay Thai training myself in the past, that you can deliver the striking power to the side of the thigh, with a PR-24 that would be roughly equivalent to that of a Thai kick to the side of thigh.

The average person (untrained) might be able to take up to 4 shot to the thigh from a Thai kick before they collapse.

You can strike to the collar bone with PR-24 or thrust to the solar plex. It's not a joke of a weapon. Even if it does not readily take a person down or immediately stop their attack it can certainly diminish their will to remain aggressive.

And I never implied the baton intimidates 30 people.


I can see you are talking out your ass and know little of what in the hell you're talking about.

The pistol course I was trained on and qualified in was latter adopted by the F.B.I.

We utilized the "double tap" and what we termed "failure to stop" (two to the chest and a third to the head). I've seen people who shot like experts in a stationary position at stationary targets shoot like hell when shooting on the move and at moving targets. Now, when that is compounded with the pressure of your life being under threat, supposedly it is common for most people to get "tunnel vision."

A lot of people can't hit a mutha fucka with a rapid fire machine gun let alone a semiautomatic pistol with a short barrel and a habit to *jerk* the trigger under stress. So, this movie idea you have of precision shooting under duress, like Clinton Eastwood, just ain't happening for most folks except for some of your civilian competition shooters. In the United States most cops might only go to the pistol range once a year. In Marine Security Forces we might have went anywhere between 12 to 24 times a year, and most of us still would be able to shoot a nigga in the knee while running. And we had superior pistol courses then anything urban cops trained with. We would do shit like shoot on the move, in the woods, with pop-out targets, and transition to shotgun, preferably before our pistol was fired dry of both magazines. We shot from kneeling and prone and at moving targets. We also frequently did room clearing with special blue barrels for our 9mm's that allowed for firing paint projectiles. We did this of course with people firing at us with paint projectiles.

Once U.S. cops are on the force they don't do shit like this. Maybe their SWAT teams do.

Do you even know anyone that has been shot? I do. A number of people. One of my friends was gunned down at point blank range on a basketball court, and took at least 7 shots (I don't remember the exact number) in his upper torso. You ever see what a cat's torso looks like after he's out the hospital from something like that? He had a thick raised scar, from the bottom of his abdomen running up to below his neck if I remember correct. He had sizable round marks 2 or 3 inches away from his center scar, with several of them running down his body parallel his center scar. I assume these were healed holes from large staples used to close his torso back up. He was shot with a 9mm.

This was not the first time this guy was shot. He has survived all times.

Let me put it to you more simply. On average 600 people are shot in my city yearly, only about 100 or so of them will actually die and be registered as a homicide.

If a mutha fucka cuts your throat from ear to ear you are far more likely to die then if some pops a cap in your ass - at least in my town. But I will wager this does or will hold true for England and London as well.

Also, your comment about a boxer as it pertains to a boxer being shot with a 9mm was stupid as hell. Stamina? You ever hear of a "sucking chest wound"? We'll see how much "stamina" you have when your lung collapses.

Sam Winchester

If you haven't got anything beneficial to add, just keep your mouth shut.

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