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| Literary Maneuvers "Fortnightly" write-offs, competition, feedback 'n' fun. |
05-11-2008, 09:59 PM
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#31
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Ink Slinger
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Fergus, Ontario CA
Posts: 2,660
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he/she/who versus him/her/whom - easy as pie (or is that pi?)
also:
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haha. Not that I didnt expect it. I wrote in literally two minutes and i dont think I edited or anything. I was kind of in a hurry and didnt really care. Maybe next contest ill actaully try.
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I spent longer than that reading and scoring it. I think maybe next contest, I'll actually just skip yours. Thanks for the heads up.
Last edited by Chris Miller : 05-11-2008 at 10:03 PM.
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05-11-2008, 10:41 PM
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#32
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Profound Writer
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: big sky country
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,375
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This was a great contest. Congratulations to the winners, and thanks to the judges for their hard work and to all the entrants for the great stories!
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Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum europe vincendarum
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05-12-2008, 08:21 AM
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#33
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Profound Writer
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: England
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,391
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Yey, congrats to Eggo, Adrian and Foxee! Exciting to be up there with you. Thanks to the judges, for your discerning taste, your valiant efforts and for so readily accepting sexual bribes in exchange for good marks. Eggo said he'll offer the same next time, plus extra, if you make him the only winner.
__________________
You attempt to pull four story lines together in two-thousand words and nearly pull it off - Eggo
We rarely buy unsolicited manuscripts, but my editor and I thought that this was a superior piece of fiction - Sunday Express magazine
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05-12-2008, 08:27 AM
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#34
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Mentor
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Western PA. Again.
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,555
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Non Serviam
Shakespeare gets whom wrong, as does the King James Bible.  It's really complex. Really really complex. It goes right back to the roots of our language.
Modern English has basically three cases (nominative, objective, possessive) but whom doesn't really belong to any of them. Middle English used to have four or five cases (nominative, accusative, genitive, dative-- and a vestigial vocative case transplanted from Greek, which only really survives in the word "O". You still see the vocative in romantic poetry from time to time... "O Wordsworth, thou king among poets," style of thing).
Whom is another vestige of that time--so it's the grammatical equivalent of male nipples. Something with no remaining purpose that's still there.
It's the dative form of "who".
In theory "dative" means the indirect object of a sentence (where "accusative" means the direct object), so dative and accusative are sort of sub-categories of the objective as we now understand it.
In practice, the dative is almost always governed by prepositions. So you might say that "whom" is what you use when you want to say "who" after a preposition.
What's a preposition? It's a word from the following list: aboard, about, above, absent, across, after, against, along, alongside, amid, amidst, among, amongst, around, as, aslant, astride, at, athwart, atop, barring, before, behind, below, beneath, beside, besides, between, beyond, but, by, despite, down, during, except, failing, following, for, from, in, inside, into, like, minus, near, next, notwithstanding, of, off, on, onto, opposite, out, outside, over, past, per, plus, regarding, round, save, since, than, through, throughout, till, times, to, toward, towards, under, underneath, unlike, until, up, upon, via, with, within, without, worth.
... and even that's not the whole rule because you can sometimes use "whom" for the subject of a sentence (a "nominative whom"). But, unless you're very sure you know what you're doing, don't.
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Just curious here. The way I always thought of it is that if the 'who/whom' in question could be answered by a subject pronoun (he/she) than it's 'who' but if it could be answered by a object pronoun (him/her) than it's whom.
Like, "Jason threw a book at James who dodged to his left." Who dodged to his left? HE did.
Or, "The man with whom I spoke was Frank." Whom was I speaking with? With HIM.
Is that an accurate way of doing it or have I been doing it wrong all these years?
__________________
"If you're a freelance writer and aren't used to being ignored, neglected, and generally given short shrift, you must not have been in the business very long." - Poppy Z. Brite
The Oddville Press
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05-12-2008, 09:22 AM
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#35
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Profound Writer
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: USA
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,241
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Thanks for the thoughtful comments judges, thanks administrators for all the work organizing, and thanks contributors for all the wonderful stories.
Congratulations to the winners. Great work.
Loulou yours cracked me up. I loved the nonchalant attitude; very funny.
__________________
If writing is wrong, I don't want to be right. 
Last edited by vangoghsear : 05-12-2008 at 09:25 AM.
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05-12-2008, 12:13 PM
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#36
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Profound Writer
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: big sky country
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,375
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loulou
Thanks to the judges, for your discerning taste, your valiant efforts and for so readily accepting sexual bribes in exchange for good marks. Eggo said he'll offer the same next time, plus extra, if you make him the only winner.
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hahaha
And here I deliberately held back from flirting with Sam, so it wouldn't appear like I was trying to influence him!

__________________
Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum europe vincendarum
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05-12-2008, 12:33 PM
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#37
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Moderator
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Location, Location
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,610
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat10
Just curious here. The way I always thought of it is that if the 'who/whom' in question could be answered by a subject pronoun (he/she) than it's 'who' but if it could be answered by a object pronoun (him/her) than it's whom.
Like, "Jason threw a book at James who dodged to his left." Who dodged to his left? HE did.
Or, "The man with whom I spoke was Frank." Whom was I speaking with? With HIM.
Is that an accurate way of doing it or have I been doing it wrong all these years?
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It's as accurate as almost anyone else's.
In the Ghostbusters tag line, should it be "Who you gonna call" or "Whom you gonna call?" (NB: There isn't a correct answer, there are arguments for both. I'm asking your opinion, not setting a test.)
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05-12-2008, 01:51 PM
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#38
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Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Southwestern Pennsylvania
Gender: Female
Posts: 4,600
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I agree, alan, if I had just thought to try Loulou's tactic there could have been a three-way tie! Which just sounds kinda dirty now. 
__________________
Try the POSTCARD FICTION CONTEST! Closes for entries November 19. Can you write a story in 350 words or less?
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05-12-2008, 02:28 PM
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#39
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Mentor
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Western PA. Again.
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,555
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Non Serviam
It's as accurate as almost anyone else's.
In the Ghostbusters tag line, should it be "Who you gonna call" or "Whom you gonna call?" (NB: There isn't a correct answer, there are arguments for both. I'm asking your opinion, not setting a test.)
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Based off my own rationale, I would say it's 'whom'. But, hypocrite that I apparently am, I would never actually say whom when speaking (or writing).
That's some catch, that Catch-22. 
__________________
"If you're a freelance writer and aren't used to being ignored, neglected, and generally given short shrift, you must not have been in the business very long." - Poppy Z. Brite
The Oddville Press
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05-12-2008, 02:33 PM
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#40
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Moderator
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Location, Location
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,610
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat10
Based off my own rationale, I would say it's 'whom'. But, hypocrite that I apparently am, I would never actually say whom when speaking (or writing).
That's some catch, that Catch-22. 
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Yeah, I feel the same--and that's why I prefer my method, which lets me say "Who you gonna call?" and be consistent and grammatical.
But you'll find grammar-blowhards that insist "Whom are you going to call?" is correct.
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05-12-2008, 04:58 PM
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#41
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Mentor
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: cape cod, USA
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,814
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Quote:
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Yey, congrats to Eggo, Adrian and Foxee! Exciting to be up there with you. Thanks to the judges, for your discerning taste, your valiant efforts and for so readily accepting sexual bribes in exchange for good marks. Eggo said he'll offer the same next time, plus extra, if you make him the only winner.
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It's very kind of you to offer sexual favors for higher scores for me Lou, but i'm glad to be not lonely at the top.
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05-13-2008, 02:36 AM
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#42
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Banned
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,414
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What is the next topic?
I might join in...
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05-13-2008, 03:44 AM
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#43
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Ink Slinger
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Bandit Country
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Truth-Teller
What is the next topic?
I might join in...
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Yeah, and pigs are growing wings as we speak.
__________________
Perception of reality is not the same thing as reality itself.
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05-13-2008, 04:35 AM
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#44
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Banned
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,414
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Why so cynical?
Are you afraid that I'll write better than you?
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05-13-2008, 04:26 PM
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#45
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Scribe
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Non Serviam
It's as accurate as almost anyone else's.
In the Ghostbusters tag line, should it be "Who you gonna call" or "Whom you gonna call?" (NB: There isn't a correct answer, there are arguments for both. I'm asking your opinion, not setting a test.)
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Ultimately I'd say the most important thing is to be consistent. Don't be jumbling different sets of rules in your writing.
Quick Question: NS, what do you mean by tolerably good? Tolerable, good, or slightly above average?
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