Gilwing

Hi there,

The purpose of this thread is to look at (constructively) the various kinds of ways fantasy can be portrayed in storytelling. For example: the Star Wars universe and Middle Earth of Lord of the Rings have it in common that the 'magic' of thier universes (The Force and Magic respectively) are well known (if not widely available). Although they have very different settings they do have have that in common. Everyone knows about magic, other races, and there are no great secrets about the universe.

One of the other things I'd like to get from this (as well as anyone else who is interested) is a better understanding on what being creative and original means. I think the two are related (usage of fantasy and understanding creativity.) I myself was writing a story once and stopped because it was "too much like Harry Potter" and that soured my writing for short while as I came to ponder what that actually meant.

I've wanted to have a thread about this for a while now and I think it's time. This isn't an end all and be all thread but I think it will at the least give us a better insight into what we already knew and hopefully some new light will be shone on things we hadn't looked at in a while.

Be honest and if you can - be nice.

Gilwing

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Wreybies

Excellent thread, sir.

You are quite correct that the examples you gave, Star Wars and The Lord of the Rings, have in common that although the rules of their worlds are different than what we experience in our regular lives, those rules are understood by all and obeyed throughout. For me the only true difference between these works is the use of technology.

One is Space Opera and the other is Elf Opera.

But how do we break from this archetype? I am working on a fantasy piece myself and I am passionate about not following the usual course. It is fantasy, no? If it adheres to a rigid form, how fantastic can it be?

Gilwing

I don't think there is anything wrong with archetypes or using them. In a sense they are tools at our disposal for the conveying of a story. Although that may sound odd given that I too have felt a strong urge to 'till fresh soil' but if you think about it all things have already been done. (Or at least all components have been used) Which only leaves us with our own style of how WE use them or combine them.

That was the long battle I had to fight with myself when I started working on my story. The flaw I realized I was committing was that in trying "not to be"
something I had robbed my story of the freedom to be what it is. This came about after I realized Harry Potter, Peter Parker, and Luke Skywalker are the same characters. (They're not of course but that's my lingo for the Chosen One trope.)

I think identifying as many conventions of fantasy in this regard could be helpful (at least if you're planning on avoiding them). For instance is there any difference between the masquerade in Vampire the role playing game and the secret world of Wizardry in Harry Potter? They're both set on Earth and they have powerful elements of the supernatural that are kept out of the common knowledge of everyday people. (unlike my first example) How many other stories use this convention? Do you know?

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Maetrix66

My personal thoughts are that if you worry too much about where your story fits in among the literary world of that which has already been done, then you will get discouraged.

The more that you look for verification that your idea is unique, the more you'll be disappointed. The easiest way to guarantee that your ideas are as unique as possible are to stay away from the genre that you are writing during your drafting period.

It has been said (in this thread, even) that there are no more original ideas, only derivations of them. I think the important thing to keep in mind is that if you have a story idea that you think is similar to something you've read, forget that it is similar and write your own story. As it develops, you will make choices that are new and interesting. But if you are truly intrigued by an idea, roll with. Don't be discouraged by some theoretical requisite of individuality. The most important thing is that the story is well written, not that no one has told a story like it before.

Now, if your story is about a boy named Parry Hotter, that has a "x" scar on his forehead and get's accepted into a school named Slogwarts, you might want to put the pen down and step away for a bit.

I don't think that the writers of The Spiderwick Chronicles, InkHeart, and Charlie Bone all came up with their ideas all at the same time, but they are all successful.

Gilwing

Agreed. Although sometimes the best reason to do something is to do it because it's different, I find those are best saved for experimental projects where you're along to learn as much as to tell. Even though I do support the exercise of being different for difference sake I still stand by what I said. All aspects of writing are tools to be used for the goal of telling your story. If you can identify and understand the ways fantasy is used then you can use it for your story as a tool. (Maybe not in this particular endeavor but you're sure to use it on another.)

But for something that you have a lot of energy put into I would focus on telling a story that works first and seeing what you can do with it from there. Ultimately I would ask what is more important: Being different (avoiding an archetype) or telling the best story possible. (keeping in mind that they are not mutually exclusive but assume they were for a moment.)

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Maetrix66

I agree with you that it is more important to tell a story that works.

It's my experience that many people try to be different. In the end most of them end up being like all the others that want to be different, which is to say not different than everybody, just different than what they were. Perhaps that is enough sometimes.

I think the role of fantasy is to remove established norms so that the story can be told without the weight of preconceived notions. If you remove the reader from the world they know by inserting them in a realm of fantasy, where everything is new and interesting, then they are more receptive to the morals or ideals you are looking to impress upon them.

They accept what is happening because it is happening in a fantastical world, and they have seen no evidence that the story taking place could not have happenend there. Any such evidence would be yours to give or withhold, as the creator of your new where and when. The willing suspension of disbelief is a powerful thing, one that fantasy works well in creating.

And of course, sometimes fantasy is employed to cover up a poorly thought out plot. In much the same way that a scenic drive seems to be shorter than a demoralizing trek down the Jersey Turnpike, a fantastic world with alot to see can shade a weak plot to make the story memorable or interesting when the events of the story are not that interesting if the setting was in todays world.

But this is a very thought provoking thread, I look forward to hearing more from everyone.

Candrah

Interesting thread.

I also agree. If you have a story to tell then tell it. Worrying about whether the idea has been done before is a waste of writing time

The way I see it, most ideas have been used at some point or other. Its not the idea so much, but how it is written that is important.

I'm pretty much a fan of fantasy and horror, but if the first page of a story grabs my attention and is well written, I'll give it a go. Even if it is a sweet romance...

Maetrix66

Now let's not get carried away here...

Wreybies

Very true for me. I find that I must tuck away my pleasure reading while I am writing.

Ungood

"fantasy" and "reality" is a fine line that every author dances.

At what point does your work become "Unbelievable" or at what point is it "Fantasy" just to be "fantasy"? I wonder.

Ungood.

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Maetrix66

I've resisted watching any of the "Ghost in the Shell" anime's. I've also resisted re-watching the Matrix trilogy, watching the 13th Floor, etc.

Here's why:
http://www.writingforums.com/fiction...500-words.html

Gilwing

I'm very glad to hear that others do this as well. Truth be told I made a decision long ago to avoid comparing myself to any other writer, in terms of their special quirks as far as their approaches to writing goes, and it's remained almost to a point of happy ignorance. Simply put I just like knowing that we're all weird but I don't want to know HOW anyone is weird until I've gotten firmly into my own groove of weirdness.

And as paradoxical as it might sound I am very glad some of you feel the same way about monitoring your intake. I think there's a kind of honesty about selective 'fasting' while you work on your own project. As well as it affords you that much more time. And from experience I will say I am not so strong as to be able to resist having my own ideas drowned in a rush of adrenaline and flash after hearing a good idea or watching a good movie or what have you. The problem I learned along the way is that as the rush ebbs you'll almost always be left standing there with some good growth on someone else's ideas and a grumble in your heart over how you could have spent that time working on something much cooler: your own story.

I haven't tried this multi quote thing yet but I will next time so here's my input on the questions from Ungood... ( I like that name by the way. And just so you know my answer isn't aimed at you as I felt you meant it in an open ended way. So the 'you' isn't you, it's whomever.)

""At what point does your work become "Unbelievable" or at what point is it "Fantasy" just to be "fantasy"? I wonder."'

I think those are two really different questions so I'll give my two cents on them as such: I think a work becomes unbelievable when it breaks it's own verisimilitude (which I take as one way of not respecting the reader). As it stops taking itself seriously it becomes such a parody of sorts that the reader detaches himself from it in order to get his head around it. I think the reader should know the world by taking them THROUGH it and not AROUND it. And anything that makes them slow down and go, "Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. wait a minute...why did he write that?" draws them to the outside of the world and reinforces that this isn't reality and adds to it's unbelievability. That's not to say that someone can't stop and say, "This shit is awesome!" but there's a big difference from hooking someone so deeply that they need to catch their breath and having them stop and ask "Am I really going to give this place another chance?"

As for the question of 'when is it fantasy just to be fantasy?' I would say that question could be answered by examining the very instant you began work on your story. (Since all your efforts will flow from and be shaped by that.) What was your motive? Did you pick fantasy because you love it? (which is a very fine reason at times.) Did you have a story to tell that could have fit in with several genres but went with fantasy because you wanted to prove something? (Prove a point or try an experiment.) And finally are you adding unneeded elements into your story just to make sure everyone knows this is a fantasy place and 'anything can happen'? (Even the seemingly unnecessary must be deemed necessary by virtue of it helping to tell the story or else it's really unnecessary at which point I would say cut it then you could rest assured it wasn't fantasy just to be fantasy.)

I think it also depends on how the fantasy is portrayed as existing. Narnia still works because it's another reality. Harry Potter is supposedly all around us and that makes it accessible. Oz doesn't make as much sense as it used to now that we've scanned the Earth via satellites and we know that Munchinland and Oz are not real countries waiting to be discovered. (By that virtue Skull Island from King Kong couldn't exist in todays world but luckily it sank to the bottom of the sea in the 40's or so I heard.)

So I suppose in keeping our fantasy 'realistic' (I love the thought of that by the way!) we also have to not only keep up with current events but try to anticipate what's to come. Well...if we want to write timeless things but I just assumed we all wanted that.

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Maetrix66

You make a very good point about when Fantasy becomes Fantasy for sake of Fantasy.

You set the rules in your world before you write the first word. When you break your own rules, you lose the reader and the story begins to lose credibility. I agree with you that at that point is when you cross the imaginary line in the sand and venture into "fantasy for fantasy's sake".

No matter what rules you set for your realm, as long as you stay true to them, the spell remains intact and the fantasy exists to tell the story.

Candrah

Sorry, bad analogy...

Candrah

I also try to avoid reading too much when I'm writing, but sometimes its just impossible. And sometimes I get my best inspiration from reading other stories. It is hard not to be influenced by them though, as Gilwing pointed out.

And this is something I often wonder about... I understand the need to create a "real" fantasy world but how do you know when to stop creating it and start writing the story set in it?

So many stories these days seem to read as a list of generic fantasy terms and rules. Has the genre turned stale?