Corporal punishment of children, the law,and different cultures. - Writers Forum

Libertine · 06-29-2008, 11:59 PM

Recently we discussed the issue of corporal punishment of children. An interesting note would be that different cultures have different understanding of spanking. In USA law and culture only very light hitting with hand is acceptable.

In some cultures hitting children with a belt is acceptable and in a few cultures beating children with a belt on the bare bottom is considered a normal spanking. In Anglo-American culture such punishments were normal in seventeenth century, and by mid-nineteenth century became an anachronism.

Very frequently immigrant families in USA face the problem of culture shock one component of which is child abuse laws. What do you think about these issues?

JosephB · 06-30-2008, 09:02 AM

Physical punishment? We prefer to berate and humiliate our our kids. When that doesn't work, we've found that the application of a low voltage electric shock does wonders. Our kids are pretty darned well behaved.

Seriously, we had a debate about this a few months ago and it got pretty nasty. I was one of the few that thought a tap on the rump could be effective under very special circumstances. You'd think I was advocating 40 lashes with a bull whip. People went ape-shit on me. So I'll bow out of this one, thanks.

alanmt · 06-30-2008, 09:24 AM

next time I see my father, I will tell him he is an anachronism.

The Hack · 06-30-2008, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alanmt

next time I see my father, I will tell him he is an anachronism.

You're the son of a spider? Is your real name Peter Parker?

Ilasir Maroa · 06-30-2008, 10:32 AM

Spanked as a kid, don't see the issue, bowing out now before I get shot.

Libertine · 06-30-2008, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JosephB

I was one of the few that thought a tap on the rump could be effective under very special circumstances. You'd think I was advocating 40 lashes with a bull whip. People went ape-shit on me. So I'll bow out of this one, thanks.

Actually, I was beaten with hands but never with a belt, which is considered mild by East European standards.

A very important issue is what do we mean by "corporal punishment". In USA it may usually consist of a light tap, while in some cultures it may be much more severe.

alanmt · 06-30-2008, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Hack

You're the son of a spider? Is your real name Peter Parker?

I am a superhero. Just not that one.

seigfried007 · 06-30-2008, 11:33 AM

I'll ditto Ilasir and Joe.

One of the nice things about getting spanked is that you can brag about it later. I've met one kid who had it worse than the kids from my family growing up--his mom couldn't get a reaction from spanking any more by the time her sons hit puberty, so she resorted to pinching their testes.

I'd never do that to my kids and I hope I never go so crazy as to do some of the things that happened in my family, but that said, the occasional tap on the rump is sometimes necessary to remind children that they're doing something stupid at a young age--and it works much better than yelling, berating, time-outs, etc.

I'd rather get a quick thwap on the bottom, a stern look, a lecture, etc than to have a parent yell at me, use a belt, chase me around the house unto taking apart the door or draggging me from behind furniture. I'd rather get a quick thwap than being cursed at or told I'm bad or have to wait for hours for my dad to get home so he can be berated and nagged into beating me within an inch of my life.

Particularly with young children who don't understand English yet, a quick "No" and stern pat on the rump goes much further than yelling, hysterics or locking the kid in the bedroom/crib for a time out.

That said, I'm also a giant softy when it comes to my kids... but I can't afford to be so soft that my children walk all over me and that they can do no wrong. I've seen too many families torn apart over the 'no spanking' thing taken a bit too far. I've seen too many parents become nothing but paychecks and maids for their children. I've seen differences in philosophies on child discipline break up long-standing, wonderful couples. And I'm not going to let my children grow up into selfish little monsters because I love them too much to ruin them through inaction when I find them doing something wrong--especially things that hurt themselves or others.

Not all children require the same kinds of disciplining. Some might not ever need spanking or lectures or whatever. Others need the ROTC program. Kids are such different little people that one approach often won't work for all the children in one family even.

The Hack · 06-30-2008, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alanmt

I am a superhero. Just not that one.

Writ-with-Hand · 06-30-2008, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Libertine

Recently we discussed the issue of corporal punishment of children. An interesting note would be that different cultures have different understanding of spanking. In USA law and culture only very light hitting with hand is acceptable.

In some cultures hitting children with a belt is acceptable and in a few cultures beating children with a belt on the bare bottom is considered a normal spanking. In Anglo-American culture such punishments were normal in seventeenth century, and by mid-nineteenth century became an anachronism.

Very frequently immigrant families in USA face the problem of culture shock one component of which is child abuse laws. What do you think about these issues?

I was spanked frequently with a belt. In fact my father treated me with the normative Black-American way... he ordered me to go get the belt for my beating. Many in Black-America when I was coming up got hit with extension cords (or switches). I only got that once from by black grandmother but I was very disciplined around her usually but I think some of my cousins got it more than a few times.

On both my black side and my white side of my family I had cousins that used to get anything from beat up by their fathers to thrown through door windows. My white cousins especially took some added psychological and emotional abuse - and mind you they eventually lived in a rural area that was well-to-do.

I don't agree at all with this no spanking movement thing. On the other hand I don't agree with beating the hell out of your child, verbally or physically, either.

I know some parents can get in trouble for spanking their child but I doubt that is the normal situation in the United States. I see young Black-American mothers (17 or 20 years old) cursing their children out in public or even smacking them around liker they were grown adults attempting armed robbery.

From my viewpoint there are far more children getting smacked around and beat up then there are parents getting in trouble with the law for swatting their child on the bottom.

You ever see that movie "Sleepers" with Robert De Niro playing the part of a Priest in New York? Well the character in that movie that grew up to be a journalist, that character's father in the movie is how I view many American fathers in the 20th century as having been something like. Cold, distant, and prone to violence.

Where the hell this idea that American fathers became pussycats came from I have no idea. Aren't these the same men that created Chicago's culture and the Klan culture of Mississippi?

seigfried007 · 06-30-2008, 04:53 PM

Writ, you apparently don't spend a lot of time in modern elementary schools and malls because I see lots of kids who get everything they ask for with a little whining or tantrum. Typically, upper-to-middle class white families there.

Poor people don't seem to mind beating the crap out of their kids.

I never got extension cords. Mostly, I got belts and household items like wooden spoons, glue sticks, ping pong paddles and other assorted weird stuff my mom might have handy. willow branches and this oddball flowering shrub in our back yard made the worst 'organic' switches, while belts and glue sticks were the worst otherwise.

Personally, I don't see a point to spanking a child with anything other than an open hand a few times at most. I don't want my children fearing objects and I know they would never fear my hands because my hands are used for so much more than spanking--like cuddling, making meals, changing diapers, brushing hair, hugs, etc. But belts and other items quickly gain that negative stigma and Object of Power status to the point where if a parent doesn't have the object, he or she is no longer perceived as in control.

As mcuh as white parents can coddle tehir children, I've met many who use the psychological abuse pattern (and abhor spanking) because they think it's somehow less damaging to a child to have the kid sit with his nose to a wall for an hour or sit in the middle of the room being ignored by everyone, or be grounded for years on end, etc. I'll give them credit for being inventive, but I've never seen any of those weird approaches work and I've seen the children rebel and become even worse or become hopelessly depressed, attention-mongering neurotics fairly often.

Writ-with-Hand · 06-30-2008, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seigfried007

Writ, you apparently don't spend a lot of time in modern elementary schools and malls because I see lots of kids who get everything they ask for with a little whining or tantrum. Typically, upper-to-middle class white families there.

No I don't. But I've seen enough families to know most families aren't Leave It To Beaver.

But I was just addressing the issue of spanking or hitting et cetera, and not really about little children throwing fits in a store to get something. Frankly, if their parents purchase whatever they want that's none of my business and for all I know growing up thinking you're the center of the world is probably better than not. Seems to work well for macho Italians in Italy, Latin Americans of inherited wealth, and Black-Africans who think women should do everything for them while they sit around drinking and gambling with other men. I don't know and I don't care.

Quote:

Poor people don't seem to mind beating the crap out of their kids.

Yeah, this is often because poor people are ignorant people. And that's across the world and not just in the U.S.

Plenty of middle-class and upper-class people do it to though. My cousins, both on my white side and black side, were usually in middle-class households.

Quote:

I never got extension cords. Mostly, I got belts and household items like wooden spoons, glue sticks, ping pong paddles and other assorted weird stuff my mom might have handy. willow branches and this oddball flowering shrub in our back yard made the worst 'organic' switches, while belts and glue sticks were the worst otherwise.

Personally, I don't see a point to spanking a child with anything other than an open hand a few times at most. I don't want my children fearing objects and I know they would never fear my hands because my hands are used for so much more than spanking--like cuddling, making meals, changing diapers, brushing hair, hugs, etc. But belts and other items quickly gain that negative stigma and Object of Power status to the point where if a parent doesn't have the object, he or she is no longer perceived as in control.

I dunno, I don't have any fear of belts.

Quote:

As mcuh as white parents can coddle tehir children, I've met many who use the psychological abuse pattern (and abhor spanking) because they think it's somehow less damaging to a child to have the kid sit with his nose to a wall for an hour or sit in the middle of the room being ignored by everyone, or be grounded for years on end, etc. I'll give them credit for being inventive, but I've never seen any of those weird approaches work and I've seen the children rebel and become even worse or become hopelessly depressed, attention-mongering neurotics fairly often.

White-American people coddle their children? Some how I would have to think that is more the exception than the rule. White people I have to think smack their children around as much as anybody. My white cousins had a harder home life than me and my brothers did.

Let me introduce you to one white cat that does not feel he was coddled as a child

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seigfried007 · 06-30-2008, 06:12 PM

Never said all white people coddle their children, Writ. I'm 'white'. My in-laws are white too and my father-in-law grew up in a terribly abusive home.

Abuse happens regardles of race.

When I mentioned white people coddling their children and coming up with inventive ways to discipline their children, I'm not saying that white people are the only ones to do so, but rather, that the only people I see doing so and the biggest pushers of the anti-spanking philosophy that I have seen are white.

Writ-with-Hand · 06-30-2008, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seigfried007

Never said all white people coddle their children, Writ. I'm 'white'. My in-laws are white too and my father-in-law grew up in a terribly abusive home.

Abuse happens regardles of race.

When I mentioned white people coddling their children and coming up with inventive ways to discipline their children, I'm not saying that white people are the only ones to do so, but rather, that the only people I see doing so and the biggest pushers of the anti-spanking philosophy that I have seen are white.

Oh.

Straylight · 06-30-2008, 07:16 PM

The whole "pinching the testes" thing is a wee bit much, but...

If more people beat their kids when they (the kids) deserved it, the world would be a much better place, because kids would be much better people. Almost everyone in my age range that I know whose a decent, upstanding, rational and moral person received a few whacks in their childhood. I can see the results of lack-of-whacking on my three young cousins, who are, quite frankly, terrors. This is, of course, the worst kind of anecdotal evidence, but I don't feel like doing the research on this one; common sense dictates clearly.

Obviously, limits make sense (couple of butt-hits with a shoe or a belt is fine, full body flailing with an extension cord, not so much), and the intent should be to shock, not to abuse, but there's my opinion.

Lambast away.