Thread: Socialism

Dictator loots national trust for his own political/ego needs. What a shock. The only difference is if he calls himself a socialist, lot of nitwits will find reasons why dictatorship is a good thing.

You want to find a more unusual and interesting national oil company situation, compare and contrast Mexico and Brasil.

Originally Posted by k3ng

Discuss. I will share my opinion once I have firmly formulated it.

I read a biography on Hugo Chavez and I believe him to be one of the great men of our times.

As it is true with everyone, so it is true with Chavez, that to really understand why the man thinks as he does, you need to begin to understand where he came from.

Chavez came up in a Venezuela that had great poverty problems and the extent in inequality in wealth surely had to be another social problem. It is important to understand that Chavez did not create poverty in Venezuela, indeed he was a victim of it. Hugo Chavez was raised in a mud hut by his grandmother, he grew up listening to national stories about that giant Simon Bolivar, he wore homemade sandals to school, ate hunger, and dreamed of becoming a professional baseball player. Chavez like many in Venezuela, unlike many in Latin America, and like many in the United States, used the military as the source to rise him out of poverty and further his education.

Chavez was a young man that devoured books from the library as a military cadet. He has always made reading a part of his life. His love for Venezuela, and I'm sure he sees it as patriotism even when he led a coup, is beyond that of most Americans (USA) for their nation. But Chavez is influenced by Simon Bolivar as well so Chavez's love and vision extends to all of Latin America and not just Venezuela.

The salaries that PDVSA managment once made, were madly obscene in light of the dismal pay the average Venezuelan citizen was expected to meet life with. And let us be clear that the extent of poverty we were (or are) talking about is not U.S. relational poverty but abject poverty in which many people lacked basic necessities for life. This must be understood to understand why Chavez reduced the salaries of PDVSA managment. It should also be understood that these people still make decent salaries - even to live off of in the United States.



If we were to look at economics as a means to find solutions to meet peoples wants, then there is nothing evil in socialism as one method to achieve that. And given that economics is not an exact science it is unreasonable to believe that in a complex world "one size fits all" solutions should be given across the board to all nation-states. I don't even think one size fits all solutions are reasonable at the municipal level.

Can Socialism work? Yes. And it also depends what the established goals are. Socialism may not be the best method of choice for a particular set of goals or new evolved needs or wants within a particular society.

The Inca empire was totalitarian and operated under an economic system we might define as socialist. There were no homeless people in the Inca's civilization, everyone had basic needs taken care of, people lived in clean, decent, and dignified quarters. The state gave you a job and the more your family grew the more foodstuffs were alloted to your family. Certainly it was better to be poor (relational wise) in the Inca empire than it was to be poor in 19th century England.

So, in my opinion, some socialist policies might be the right prescription for Venezuela at this time. I think savage capitalism as a basic rule of thumb, in Venezuela right now, would be a greater failure at satisfying the wants of the citizenry.

Are the extend social roles Chavez has given to PDVSA the most efficient way to run a company? No. Is it proving to financially bolster certain programs of Chavez and to help satisfy certain wants of a large part of the Venezuelan population? Apparently yes it is.



I would like to think that economics, putting aside all its theories, should be used fundamentally to provide solutions.

At this new PDVSA, job creation -- outside the oil business -- is also in. The company is kicking off a new program to create about 73,000 jobs, including at a paper plant and in ecotourism.

The firm's own hiring is based on social and political goals as much as on talent. Under a new job-placement system, candidates with larger families are given priority because they are viewed as needing jobs more. Those who have been unemployed for longer are pushed to the front of the line, too. This goes for technical and engineering jobs as well as secretarial ones.

I read a biography on Hugo Chavez and I believe him to be one of the great men of our times.

Just bloody fucking amazing.

Originally Posted by lin

Just bloody fucking amazing.

Yeah, his Lincoln like rise out of abject poverty into his democratically elected, presidential office, was.

You have NO fucking idea who you are talking about.

Plenty of people come from poverty to power...and many are as big an asshole as Hugo.

(Ever heard of Idi Amin?)

He's fucking that country off and squandering their economic future in order to be a bigshot player in the scenario of messing up other countries around him.

Originally Posted by lin

You have NO fucking idea who you are talking about.

Plenty of people come from poverty to power...and many are as big an asshole as Hugo.

(Ever heard of Idi Amin?)

He's fucking that country off and squandering their economic future in order to be a bigshot player in the scenario of messing up other countries around him.

Apparently you seem to think you know better Hugo Chavez than the majority of the people of Venezuela.

You have your opinion I have mine. I think in the future, history will judge him well, especially in light of the cultural history of his country and the colonial history of the Americas.

The rich in Venezuela largely do not like him but he is beloved by many of the poor. I think I know which sides opinion I'll favor in this matter.

Apparently you seem to think you know better Hugo Chavez than the majority of the people of Venezuela.

Replace Chavez with Kim and Venezuela with North Korea and that sounds pretty foolish. The people under those governments don't always know what's best for them.

Originally Posted by Writ-with-Hand

Apparently you seem to think you know better Hugo Chavez than the majority of the people of Venezuela.

You have your opinion I have mine. I think in the future, history will judge him well, especially in light of the cultural history of his country and the colonial history of the Americas.

The rich in Venezuela largely do not like him but he is beloved by many of the poor. I think I know which sides opinion I'll favor in this matter.

Originally Posted by Malone

Replace Chavez with Kim and Venezuela with North Korea and that sounds pretty foolish. The people under those governments don't always know what's best for them.

The context of my statement had to do with Lin's accusation I do not know who Chavez is, which also implicitly inferred that the majority of Venezuelans don't, and that he endowed with superior ideology and happenstance of nationality can make infallible judgments on other national leaders who hold popular support in their country.

I would go further and in light of the great housing bust, a war costing billions, maimed soldiers returning home to no doubt cost more than a monetary toll on U.S. society for years to come, and suggest that the Venezuelan poor have made a wiser choice in Chavez than the U.S. population in Bush.

Kim of North Korea is starving his people Chavez of Venezuela is feeding his. If you have ever read on him you would know the bloated bellies of hungry children in his country has left lasting impressions on him - not to mention his own experiences in poverty. His positive relations with the Amerindians of Venezuela is also of significantly historical and monumental proportions.

Apparently you seem to think you know better Hugo Chavez than the majority of the people of Venezuela.

Christ I'd certainly hope so. The majority of Venezuelans are ignorant illiterates. Like Chavez.

But in fact, he's not enjoyed by most people there and won the election by just buying up the unwashed (pretty common in those areas)

You don't seem to know shit about him, actually. You say he's this great man, then your reasoning is that he arose to power out of poverty.

You have the most fucked up ability to jump to conclusions about people, places and things you have not experienced than anybody I've ever been around.

(At least you're off the Brazil kick. Finally read another book, I'd guess)