Edgewise

I have been doing some thinking lately. To my ear, it sounds as if the original punk rockers (New York Dolls/Johnny Thunders, Saints, Ramones, Stooges, Sex Pistols) are far more related to the original rock n' roll of Chuck Berry and Bo Diddly, than were their contemporaries. In this sense, I suppose, one could say that although the activism and social revolutions of the sixties generation ENABLED the punks, the punks were not influenced by the music of the sixties (except, perhaps, the Stooges, who were active in the late sixties through the early seventies). So what do you guys think?

Punk = throwback to early rock

Punk = a musical movement in the same vein as psychedelia and progressive rock, if not in sound, than at least in intentions.

__________________
What would your good be doing if there were no evil, and what would the earth look like if shadows disappeared from it?
- Woland (Satan) in Bulgakov's "Master and Margarita"

JosephB

Listen to the Ramones and hear the Beachboys. I want To Be Well. Or more obviously Rockaway Beach. Their cover of Surfin' Safari fits right into their repertoire.

EIDT: I love the Stooges -- way, way ahead of their time.

__________________
"The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."
-- Albert Einstein

"I am really only interested in a fiction of miracles."
-- Flannery O'Connor

Malone

Most of the earlier punk guys could barely play their instruments, so I wouldn't compared them to Chuck. I know that's not exactly what you were doing, but it made me wince.

I've seen interviews with the Dolls and Ramones, and they specifically make a point of saying they hated the 60s and 70s psychedelic movement, and were coming out as a complete counter to that.

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There Is A Policeman Inside All Our Heads: He Must Be Destroyed


Malone's Mind
Everyday Madness Kindle Edition

JosephB

It's the songs -- not the playing. The problem is, you can trace the the Chuck Berry influence down any branch of rock and roll. Punk is no exception. With the exception of the Clash, punks didn't care much about activism. The Sex Pistol's Anarchy in the UK and God Save the Queen was all show. They didn't give a crap.

__________________
"The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."
-- Albert Einstein

"I am really only interested in a fiction of miracles."
-- Flannery O'Connor

Edgewise

Well aware of the Ramones/Beachboys connection, but the Beach Boys were themselves glorified versions of Chuck Berry.

I agree, the Stooges are fucking awesome.

EDIT: We are in agreement about the Beach Boys/Ramones. Sorry if I came across as argumentative.

I am no guitarist. I can't play, and I can't read tabs, but in the case of the Dolls, their rhythm section sounds like they owed a huge debt of gratitude to Mr. Berry. So would you say they were more reactionary then revolutionary? It is a tough call in my opinion. Were they reacting against the sixties and trying to turn back the clock to early rock, or were they trying to move rock forwards, away from the sixties?

__________________
What would your good be doing if there were no evil, and what would the earth look like if shadows disappeared from it?
- Woland (Satan) in Bulgakov's "Master and Margarita"

Edgewise

I don't think that's neccasarily true with all rock. I am not a big fan of progressive rock, like Styx, Journey, and Yes, so I haven't heard much of them, but from what little I have heard of them, it seems like they were doing something altogether different from early rock, to the point where the original sound was unrecognizable.

__________________
What would your good be doing if there were no evil, and what would the earth look like if shadows disappeared from it?
- Woland (Satan) in Bulgakov's "Master and Margarita"

JosephB

Well, I always though there was an anti-disco component as well. And an anti-overblown art rock thing to -- Styx, Journey, and Yes -- as you mentioned.

Really, just a desire to strip down and get back to basics. The whole persona of the punk rocker speaks to this, I think.

Similar to Grunge being a reaction to the whole hair band, polished LA rock sound.

This music makes me sick. All crap. I think these come more from Sgt. Pepper era Beatles, The Moody Blues and maybe Pink Floyd.

__________________
"The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."
-- Albert Einstein

"I am really only interested in a fiction of miracles."
-- Flannery O'Connor

Malone

I guess they were taking it forward. They were trying to boil the music down to the basics, and make it their own, so I guess that is forward. I know they all hated the way songs had become so drawn out, with all the instruments and synths going off into long solos. So they did their minute and a half songs.
Wouldn't that make revolutionaries and reactionaries?

I'm really not that familiar with Dolls actual music, I just know about their history. There's a two hour movie that comes on the pay channels all the time about them, and I've watched it a few times.

Hello arigato, Mr. Roboto.
Hello! Hello!

I like almost all styles of music, so my playlist will have Styx come on between a Twista rap and a Willie Nelson ballad, then go over to Journey then back to bluegrass before getting into a little Old Dirty Bastard. I freak people out when I play my ipod for other people.

__________________
There Is A Policeman Inside All Our Heads: He Must Be Destroyed


Malone's Mind
Everyday Madness Kindle Edition

Edgewise

And grunge itself owes a debt of gratitude (which I believe goes rather unaknowledged) to punk. We are pretty much in agreement.

__________________
What would your good be doing if there were no evil, and what would the earth look like if shadows disappeared from it?
- Woland (Satan) in Bulgakov's "Master and Margarita"

Edgewise

Lol. My mp3 playlists confuse people as well.

Just listen the guitar parts on this Dolls song (which you may or may not have heard). Pure sleaze, but also pure rock.

YouTube - New York Dolls

__________________
What would your good be doing if there were no evil, and what would the earth look like if shadows disappeared from it?
- Woland (Satan) in Bulgakov's "Master and Margarita"

JosephB

Really, I hate Styx more than any other band. That Sail Away Song makes me want to puke up my own guts. They just cause a visceral reaction in me, way out of proportion to what a rational response to band should be.

__________________
"The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."
-- Albert Einstein

"I am really only interested in a fiction of miracles."
-- Flannery O'Connor

Edgewise

Well put. But, bless their hearts, they are popular as all hell.

__________________
What would your good be doing if there were no evil, and what would the earth look like if shadows disappeared from it?
- Woland (Satan) in Bulgakov's "Master and Margarita"

JosephB

Oh, I could talk about music all night. But time for bed. Later.

__________________
"The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."
-- Albert Einstein

"I am really only interested in a fiction of miracles."
-- Flannery O'Connor

BOURBON

Oh how I remember feeling rebelious...it was the queen's silver jubilee...the whole street was having a party to mark the occasion...tressle tables with sheets for tablecloths...the old wartime spirit revived with party sevens of watney's pale ale...and there's me, with my ripped teeshirt, playing 'god save the queen' and 'pretty vacant' into the street through my open window...swept away on a transcendendal wave of imagined future freedom...

Later I changed my teeshirt and went to join the party...sold myself out for a tuna sandwich and a cadbury's roll....

My dad danced the twist to a speeded up Bill Hailey 45, almost giving himself a heart attack...and I went home in disgust to listen the the Pistol's abortion anthem...'Mummeeee, I'm not an animal...' Innocent days.
Gee, the old songs eh, they don't write 'em like that anymore, do they?

JosephB

There's no problem. You can track much of rock and roll back to blues and country. Throw in a little gospel for good measure.

__________________
"The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."
-- Albert Einstein

"I am really only interested in a fiction of miracles."
-- Flannery O'Connor