tristiano

I'm sure almost everyone will disagree with me and bash my thread. thats what the debate forum is all about, right?

Hitler exploited flaws of the country and misconceptions of the people, while making charismatic speeches, to gain power. The people of the country posed a threat, rebellion would slow his objectives. To overcome this issue he blamed the destruction of buildings on citizens, using this as an excuse to take away rights. This made them less of a threat to him.

Hitler saw that as technology advanced everyone was kept alive despite disabilities. This means that whether fit or not, someone can be kept alive long enough to have children. This means natural selection cannot do its job. survival of the fittest only works if the unfit die. If the fit keep the unfit alive, the entire race weakens. This was accelerated by the fact that at the time the strongest would often enter the military. this caused the weak to have a higher chance of having children. this means that weak genes were carried on more often that strong ones. He saw this and had the physically handicapped and mentally retarded killed in an attempt to combat this issue and strengthen the race.

He had many others systematically killed based on various factors. the most common of these factors was religion. Honestly, I cannot comprehend why he had Jews killed simply because they were Jewish. Most teachers I ask simply tell me "because he was a bad man" but I do not believe this is the reason. His systematic killing of the weak and stupid had a point, it strengthened the race, he knew this. There was however no proof that Jews were weaker or stupider than people of any other religion or lack thereof. The only explanation I can come up with is that he was convinced by the sheer amount of antisemitism going on at the time.

In my opinion, Hitler was only trying to reverse the damage society had done and was doing to the process of evolution. this leads me to my believe that he was NOT a Christian, or at least not a creationist. Not only did he clearly believe in evolution but he was simply too smart. That is a different topic entirely however...

Please note, I don't support in any way killing of people based on religion, race, or anything else that an undeveloped society wouldn't get rid of anyways. i only want our race to evolve forwards, not backwards.

Questions: welcome.
Bashes: if i didn't welcome them i would get bashed even more, so, welcome.
Understanding: I can only hope.

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The Backward OX

Quote:

Survival of the fittest only works if the unfit die. If the fit keep the unfit alive, the entire race weakens.

I don’t want to debate Hitler. For two reasons. One, I know little in depth about the man. Two, what’s done is done.

But I would like to debate your quote above. The fit keeping the unfit alive is being done today more and more, and the signs are everywhere that the entire race is indeed weakening. I don’t know why we do it – overcompensating for Adolf perhaps – but whatever the reason, it’s wrong wrong wrong. We should let the deformed die. It’s what nature intends and we’re messing with nature.

If anyone can quote me just one example of how we humans as a race are strengthening, I shall apologise most humbly.

I’ll even pledge to stop sniping at Sam.

I think I’m safe.

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Originally Posted by Wildcard
I view with distaste the excretions polluting this site, suffering when I read another by-product of the boredom of one with access to a computer and the internet. As I read I feel I am being defecated on, and cling to an idea that one day I may find solace in the words of one who takes pride in their work.

BOURBON

tristiano: As part Jew, I find it difficult not to give you my full speech on this subject, but that would be inappropriate. Suffice to say, Hitler was a man driven by pathology and fuelled by the willingness of others to believe his lies - if he had genius it was as a social psychologist:he knew how to manipulate the collective subconscious and did it for his own ends.

Evolution happens whether you like it or not. The problem with 'managed evolution' is that it is inevitably managed by the unevolved. Therefore it follows that erronious judgements will be made as to what traits are desirable for the human race to 'improve'.

Ox: your point is simplistic. I grew up with an aunt with cerebral palsy. She was both physically and mentally handicapped and, with a strong personality, was a challenge to cope with. With her as a catalyst, my sibs and I learnt patience, understanding and nurturing skills which formed our personalities and left us all well-trained to nurture our own off-spring. We have collectively brought doctors, engineers, musicians and artists into the world...our own master-race, without leaving one poorly baby to die in the rain.

The day the human race dismisses genocide as 'what's done is done' is when we might as well pack up and go home.

BB

PageOfCups

The quote you picked out was wrong to begin with. It's reproduction, not survival that is important. You can be the pinicle of perfection for our species, but if the condom never breaks chances are you'll never have offspring to pass on your genetic information.

The "deformed" as you put it (itself a rediculous statement because oddities don't just occur physically, but mentally) rarely reproduce and if they do the gene that cause the deformaty is usually reccesive so it won't be expressed in their children anyway.

As for the example, I'll give you two. Stephen Hawking and Albert Einstien. Hawking has an obvious physical impairment but a brilliant mind that has brought about huge leaps in his field of science and Einstien was dyslexic. It's what humans create now that strenghthen the spiecies as any physical improvement has no baring on reproductive ability.

But if physically is what you meant, then the average hight has been increasing due to sexual selection.

DarkHorse220

Evolution doesn't have a goal; evolution is the response of a population to it's environment over a period of time.

Your very definition of "fitness" is flawed, since it assumes that fitness to survive is based on something arbitrary -- i.e., physical strength (what I'm gathering from your assertion that the strongest join the military).

By definition, the people that do not reproduce and thus spread their genes are "unfit" by the standards of the surroundings.

The environment is what dictates fitness, not the individual or the species.

In other words, if what you consider "fit" individuals manage to kill themselves off and don't reproduce, while what you consider "unfit" manage to thrive -- then you're definition of fit and unfit need to be re-evaluated.

The one that survives with the most descendants is the winner in evolutionary terms, not the traits that you think are the fittest.

PageOfCups

DarkHorse, I'm impressed. I'm so used to people getting evolution wrong at it's foundations that it floors me when I come across someone that actually understands how it works.

DarkHorse220

I try.

Science geek FTW!

PrisonerOfPrey

That said: You can not argue that the intelligent people are keeping the unintelligent alive. The scientist are devoloping ways to keep the smokers and other bad choice makers alive from cancer. Yes, I know that just because you smoke you don't deserve to die. The problem is, all these people are supposed to because of the human body and it's limitations.

The elderly (who used to die naturally at around the age 50) are being kept alive longer and longer, at the same time human beings are not slowing the reproductive process. The same argument about poor malnurished countries will soon apply to the earth in general.

- Don't sent money to the starving children in a country so they can have just enough food to continue their life. More importantly, the elderly shouldn't be taking the food from the younger more vibrant members of society. Sad as it is, people in these countries need to die. The ecological footprint can not hold the population that resides on it. Money from the richer countries (like the US) or in this case, the more fit countries(people) should go towards planned parenthood, education about sex and how to avoid pregnancy.

I do hope you can see the similarities.

On a side note, I would have to agree Hitler was a genius. I hate him, I think that what he did was wrong, and that he was a terrible person. But what he did, and to what extent required some level of genuis.

__________________
Now I lay me down to sleep/
With every passing thought I weep/
Lead me into nights dark bliss/
And let me wake in innocence. -Me

DarkHorse220

What you're describing here is eugenics, the intentional manipulation of evolutionary processes in order to shape a population's traits.

This is somewhat different from the premise that Hitler was "assisting evolution's efforts". Evolution just works, it doesn't have a moral imperative.

Eugenics, on the other hand, does. Whether you choose to agree with the moral and ethical outcomes of eugenics programs is up to your particular value system.

The Voodoo Shaman

Then I fear, for if the smartest are too busy working their careers and thus have no time for children, what does that say about the only ones who do have children at others’ expense (chavs)?

Humans are fucked! Socialists seriously need to re-evaluate their ideology and get with reality.

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Who do you do when you do voodoo?

DarkHorse220

It could seem that way at first glance.

However, you'd have to question some assumptions:

1) Are the smartest actually those that are most successful, going by the metric of financial success and/or social status?

Perhaps, but perhaps not. Intelligence doesn't always correlate to financial success, for a variety of reasons.

2) Does high intelligence propagate along genetic lines?

There's certainly a genetic component, but the "nurture via nature" viewpoint suggests that the environment and the brain's responses to the environment can play just as much a role.

So even though the most successful, by the socio-economic standards, may be a dying class, it doesn't necessarily follow that the *intelligent* are dying out.

Now, we may be raising a society of classless rednecks, but that's a whole 'nother can of worms.

JosephB

As a classless redneck, I take great exception to this. If you knew what it was like to endure a lifetime of trailer park and mullet jokes, maybe you'd think twice about spouting your elitist bullshit.

Rednecks are people too, and we deserve respect and consideration.

I have a dream, that someday a man will be not be judged by the redness of his neck, but by the content of his character.

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"The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."
-- Albert Einstein

"I am really only interested in a fiction of miracles."
-- Flannery O'Connor

DarkHorse220

I was born and grew up in Birmingham.

lin

I've never thought of Hitler as particularly genius. "Charismatic" is the big word I'd associate with him. He had the gift of convincing.

But I think people are lame to say that somebody is a genius, or a hero, or even admirable just because they do evil things. You have to give genius its due.

A more recent example I would cite, Bin Laden. The guy is a genius. His accomplisments were incredible, really. 500 years from now he might end up being a legendary hero: a single man who struck devastating blows to the strongest evil power on earth, etc.

I would consider him a hero, just for somebody else. And I find a lot to admire about the guy. Fearless warrior, selflessly pious, daring to think amazingly out of the box...and pull it off.

Being a bad buy doesn't take any of that away from him. Any more than Idi Amin being a monster doesn't take away from his incredible athletic skills.

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alanmt

I would say that Hitler was a political genius in his rise to power and how he tapped into post-World War One German public disaffectation.

Like Napoleon's military genius, though, Hitler's political abilities degraded and his personality flaws became more dominant and unchecked after he had achieved sufficient triumphs to place him in absolute power.

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