Bullfighting, seal hunting, rodeos, caged bears and other animal cruelty - Page 4 - Writers Forum

seigfried007 · 05-05-2008, 05:14 PM

Damn straight predators are necessary. If they weren't, they wouldn't be there--present and represented as vital in the antural world well before man got the uppity notion he could kill an animal and eat it.

Killing an animal you raised is difficult, but it's a messy fact of life--like all forms of death. Death happens,and I think that's a fact affluent city-dwellers forget until it hits them in the face. People forced to see the full cycle of life--especially those who see it several times, as with the case of farmers--learn to rejoice no matter what stage of life they witness. After awhile, you start seeing death for what it is--sometimes painful, sometimes messy, but the world goes on.

seigfried007 · 05-05-2008, 05:34 PM

Every breed has cocasional issues with mauling humans. Little ones nip, chase, yap and are generally beligerant but don't have the size and equipment to do much damage (except they make small children deathly afraid of dogs occasionally). Big ones generally have nicer dispositions, are better around children but, if they snap or get protective, have the equipment to do some serious damage. No matter what dog you have, it'll have its drawbacks. Inferior breeding and ignorant or poor raising will only make it worse.

However, I'm not a big pusher for BSL--ie, banning a breed from an area. It doens't solve the problem because

A) Animal legislation is notoriously poorly enforced. Cops have better things to do (or at least they'd likie to think so)

B) It doesn't stop bad owners from getting ahold of a dog closely resembling the one just banned and doing the same damned thing to bastardize that breed and give it a bad name.

So what, you banned Rotties and Pits from an area. Now perfectly good dogs have to find another place to live--force good owners and good children to part with a member of the family--all because of a negative stereotype. People can't pick up and just move because of BSL--working class people don't have the money to do that all the time. So it forces good dogs to go into shelters and get euthanized.

And it has nothing to do with attacks relative to the total population of the breed. There are hundreds of thousands of Rottweilers and pit bulls living in the US that never do anything to hurt a human being during the entire course of their often fairly long lives. But if a few do it--if a few poor specimens go bad--the entire breed gets a bad name and suddenly "BAN THE BREED!" is shouted by ignorant masses of people who've never really met dogs that represent the vast majority of the breed.

It's no different than racism in that respect.

I'm not going to be told by ome political bully following bad advice that my dog is some horrible lethal thing bent on the destruction of life as we know it, that her being a Rottie pup somehow inherently makes her a ticking time bomb bent on tearing a child's face off. She's defensive certainly, and protective, (and for the 'defensive' reason, I'd never consider breeding her), but she's never vicious. She has no interest in killing rats, for heaven's sake, and was actually quite wonderful with kittens when I fostered them.

However, we do live in a democratic republic and we can protest and petition and send letters, etc. We don't have to sit around waiting for the doom of our pets.

Also, concerning BSL, what's the regulation on mixed-breeds?

Ungood · 05-05-2008, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alanmt

riled you up a little bit, eh?

I believe government should be as limited as possible, actually. But I believe it has some authority to regulate public safety. And if irresponsible ownership of dangerous dogs creates a public safety threat of sufficient magnitude that governmental regulation of the ownership of such animals is good policy, then I support it. If you'd like to argue about whether the public safety threat is of sufficient magnitude to merit governmental regulation, rather than making ad hominem attacks on my character which, regrettably for you, have failed to impenetrate my secure ego shields, then we may have something to discuss.

It is not an ad hominem attack to say you are willing to toss aside your liberties for the illusion of safety. It is stating the obvious.

As for BSL it is moronic, if you ban one dog another will take it's place. If you had done an ounce of history you would know that in the 1950's a herding dog The German Sheppard was equally labeled a "child killer" and "mauler of people" IE: Dangerous Breed. Breed bans were tossed up and the same hype and stereotype of nonsense that was said about Pits today was said then.

In the 1970's Dobermen Pincers were equally labeled with such lies as "their brain swells and they go crazy" they will "Turn on their owner" and "Maul and kill Children" and once again calls for breed bans came.

The difference today is that apparently Americans (Like you - OK now THAT is an Ad Hominem Attack) lost their balls somewhere along the way and are willing to roll over take it up the ass and let the government impose on your life because your too chicken shit to defend your rights.

So to answer your question, NO, it is not a public danger you just have been duped into believe this crap.

And some how became wussified in the process.

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The tone and substance of your response suggests that you are probably also appalled that you have to have a driver's license to drive and that you have to drive on the right side of the road (damn the government for limiting your right to drive your vehicle wherever you want)

Apparently the Bill of Rights is something you have not read. Which is a good thing for the Government, nothing is easier to over come then good old fashioned ignorance.

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and that you cannot own certain dangerous chemicals (damn the government for preventing you from owning whatever property you want) or that you can't fire a gun in town or from the side of the road (damn the government for interfering with your use and enjoyment of your own property).

Wow... did you just get dumber as your post went on, or was that intentional to sound like an idiot. (That might be an ad-hominie attack) your points and examples were so off the wall and lame I do not even know how to respond to them.

And at one time you were allowed to carry a gun in town... and look and what happened when people became ballless... oh right... now only cops and criminals have guns making the rest of us pansy assed victims... great cultural advancement there... I guess that works in your mind somehow.

Hey... they are your freedoms your pissing away, so your not saving anyone.

"Anyone that is willing to give up an ounce of freedom for an ounce of security deserves neither freedom or security"
Benjamin Franklin (You know.. the guy that help set the foundation of this country)

Want to take a guess what he would say about this BSL crap.

So I guess when you tell your child about the good old days when you could own what ever dog you wanted, and then people got there wussy on (And you will artfully fail to mention that you were one of the wussies) and now people are only allowed government sanctioned "Safe Dogs and Pets" I am sure you will feel great when your child looks you in the eye and says "That's just wrong" and your thinking "Yah, but I i was sacred to fight back, it was easier to roll over and take it" I am sure you are shaping up to be a real hero for your kid (or future kids).

I suppose if you want to be a wussy and justify your emasculation at letting the government ass rape your freedoms that is your cross to bear not mine.

justify it any way you want at the end of the day your still just rolling over and taking it with out protest.

Read Malone's sig... it sums up the situation nicely... but you have blinded yourself that... haven't you?

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Originally Posted by JosephB

Seriously, Ungood, I don't think that any breed of dog should be banned. It's just unfortunate that so many people who own these dogs are idiots. It just gives them a little power and makes them feel good about themselves. It's a penis extension of sorts. This may or may not include you. If you want a smart, loyal, powerful dog, there are many breeds that don't have a propensity to maul humans. So why a pit bull?

I like them because they are smart, loyal, loving and I have to say one of the most amazing dogs you could ever hope to own. Yes they are a bit hard headed (Like any good bull dog) and a bit over energetic (Like a terrier) so they are not for everyone. But when you see their loyalty and see that they would do anything for you, anything you asked with all their heart and soul.

in the 1950's the same "Scum" owned Sheppard's, they moved on to Doberman in the 1970's. Then in 1990's they went after Pits and now they are moving on to Rotties.

The Dog ain't the problem.

But if you knew one, I mean you can't help but fall in love them and be willing to defend them. They are an amazing dog, truly an icon and living legend in their own right.

I would take Luna out for ice cream and she would run around and lick the little children clean (Gotta love that) and she would be so gentle yet happy go lucky at the same time. I would watch people petting her as she licked their face while her tail wagged and children giggled and played with her and they would ask.

"She's lovely, I mean she is really wonderful, what kind of dog is this?" and I knew that the second I said "Pit Bull" they would get these horror struck looks on their face and pull their children away running back their car.

Funny how much respect you can loose for your fellow human when they do that.

Yah.. it really makes things worth fighting for when you think about it. The Dog ain't the problem.

FYI the most common owner of a APBT is a middle class white female, but you never hear about them because those are the well behaved dogs. Quiet dogs don't make the press.

The Highest Percentage of Canine Good Citizen Dogs are Pit Bulls. The Highest percentage of "super dogs" are pit bulls. But people don't hear about them, because they are not news worthy.

"Tulley wins weight pull and enters the rank of Super Dog" does not seem to hold as much audience as "Pit Bull Mix/Type dog bits child"

The "Gangsta" who bought a Keg on Legs and trying to be tough makes the news.

The women that are working two jobs to support the three pit bulls she has at home that she rescued from the shelter because they were just going to die does not make the news, now do they?

But that is the nature of news. In fact, if you have a dog bite story unless it is a pit bull it will not make the news. You think other dogs are safe not because they are, but because "Lab bites child" is not news worthy.

That is just life.

That is just media.

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So our thinking really isn't that different. The problem is more with the people with than the animals. Unfortunately, you can't legislate stupidity and people will want own pit bulls. It's also too bad that when the dog feels like snacking on a human face, it's rarley the owner's.

Yes.. yes you can legislate stupidity. Put up stiffer fines for abuse. Make Dog Fighting a death sentence. Have people like Michel Vick rot in prison for 20 years, that will make a dent.

People don't care about the truth, they care about a story. And PS: There are no known reports were a Pit Bull turned on it's owner, ever in the history of the Dog (200 years).

Mutts and Mixed breeds are not Pit Bulls they are Mutts and mixed breeds.

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And yes, my dog is house trained. Unfortunately my two year old isn't yet, but we are working in it.

My first steps were taken hanging on the collar of a Pit Bull, Coco, she was a guardian, my pillow, my favorite toy and nanny when I was a baby.

Needless to say my face never got chewed in, and the only scars I have on my body are from my own stupidity not her teeth.

Currently today, each night when I go to sleep Luna has her spot on the bed with me, and right now she is curled up on my feel putting them to sleep.

Ungood.

Matthatter · 05-05-2008, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Killing an animal you raised is difficult, but it's a messy fact of life--like all forms of death. Death happens,and I think that's a fact affluent city-dwellers forget until it hits them in the face. People forced to see the full cycle of life--especially those who see it several times, as with the case of farmers--learn to rejoice no matter what stage of life they witness. After awhile, you start seeing death for what it is--sometimes painful, sometimes messy, but the world goes on.

Seriously, what the fuck? How apathetically pathetic. "Well, modern technology enables one with a certain amount of money to have a healthy diet without eating meat, but the world goes on and country folk see death all the time so fuck it, let's eat steak because it tastes good and we don't want to offend our friends and family!"

Ungood · 05-05-2008, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seigfried007

Also, concerning BSL, what's the regulation on mixed-breeds?

All pure breed dogs and mixes thereof are considered part of the ban.

So if you have a mutt that "Look like it might some 'Dangerous Dog' in it's linage someplace" it is thus banned or a muzzle is required.

In some states just list physical properties or have a "Any sign of aggression" clause in the mix.

IE: if your dog growls (or shows aggression) at someone it becomes a dangerous dog.

Ungood.

Ungood · 05-05-2008, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthatter

Seriously, what the fuck? How apathetically pathetic. "Well, modern technology enables one with a certain amount of money to have a healthy diet without eating meat, but the world goes on and country folk see death all the time so fuck it, let's eat steak because it tastes good and we don't want to offend our friends and family!"

That ain't even close to what she said.

Sides, you can eat a veggie diet and it ain't gonna cost you more then it would to eat meat.

And modern science is not required either.

Ungood.

Sam Winchester · 05-05-2008, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthatter

Seriously, what the fuck? How apathetically pathetic. "Well, modern technology enables one with a certain amount of money to have a healthy diet without eating meat, but the world goes on and country folk see death all the time so fuck it, let's eat steak because it tastes good and we don't want to offend our friends and family!"

It's got nothing to do with the fact that it tastes good, or that country folk don't want to offend friends and family. The simple fact of the matter is that a vegan diet does not produce near the same amount of protein and other daily requirements that red meat or poultry does.

Sam.

Matthatter · 05-05-2008, 06:55 PM

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It's got nothing to do with the fact that it tastes good, or that country folk don't want to offend friends and family. The simple fact of the matter is that a vegan diet does not produce near the same amount of protein and other daily requirements that red meat or poultry does.

That's where modern technology comes in.

You carnivores can be so retarded...

seigfried007 · 05-05-2008, 06:57 PM

No, what I'm saying, Ungood, is what percentage of banned breed must be proven. That's where things get tricky. If only APBT's were banned, well, all you have to do is say, "Yes, but my dog isn't a APBT, it's a Cane Corso," or "Well, my dog is precisely one-thirty-second APBT--the rest is Labrador Retriever, Bichon Frise, Boxer and Great Dane, sir."

I would think they couldn't just walk into your house and say, "That dog looks like a pit bull--we have to confiscate it." Without any proof of the breeding, you can't relaly prove what kind of dog it is--particularly with pit bulls and their likeness.

MattHatter, I'm not telling you how to live, but I can tell you that if it weren't for meat-eating, fur-wearing barbarians, you wouldn't be alive so, obviously, not everything they did was so friggin terrible, hunh?

Also, it's kinda hard for some people to get a balanced diet on veggies. How the hell do you expect poor people to get all the proitein they need to be robust, healthy adults on nothing but veggies? Are you aware of how much fresh vegetables cost? What about the idea of living on nothing but canned veggies, beans and peanut butter? Sound good to you?

Got news for you: the human alimentary canal was not designed for purely vegetarian living--it's too damned short. Our dental structure is ill-suited to the task but is versatile for a reason. Animals designed to be vegetarians don't look like we do on the inside, buddy.

Apathetically pathetic? You're reading some completely different things than what I put in that post, buddy. Rich people have always eaten better than poor people because poor people make a living providing rich people with stuff. Rich people don't do jack shit with poor people in mind either--not unless they were poor, regularly hang out with poor people, get tax credit or are feeling generous (like little girls who take in stray puppies because they're spoiled rotten, want some attention, or just feel like befriending something despised).

Like hell they'll turn from their vegetarian lifestyle because poor people might depend on them for jobs. Not buying it, Matt. Poor people's occupations will always follow the whimsy of rich people. They will always go where they are needed and do whatever is required to make a living.

If you want to be a fur-free vegetarian, do it. I couldn't care less, Matt. Really. Go with the fad like the other yuppies. Give yourself an expensive diet with fairly little variety by comparison to us omnivores. I don't care what you do to your own body with the passionate vegetarian fervor you apparently have. But don't force that down my throat por anyone else's because it's just plain rude.

Also, some food for thought, if every person suddenly stopped eating meat and went the all-out vegetarian lifestyle, what would happen to all the cattle, pigs, minks, etc? If you don't beleive in milking cows (because you're Vegan), how the hell do we get the necessary milk-derived components of formula for children with difficulty nursing or for orhaned children and animals?

Who pays for these worthless cows? I mean, obviously, we can't kill them off because that would be inhumane, right? So what charming individual foots the bill for their food, grounds, care? Will the cows be sterilized to prevent them from making more suddenly worthless cows?

Since, aside from food, pigs have no use, what do we do with them? Since minks have no use other than for fur, do we let them all go to destroy the local wildlife? What about other animals?

seigfried007 · 05-05-2008, 07:02 PM

What the hell does modern technology have to do with it? You never explained that--how enlightened and non-retarded-carnivore of you, Matt.

Simply put, it's more economical to raise the damn animals for food and eat them. Animal proteins are more easily digested and provide everything you need in a couple bites versus the vegetarian way, which involves eating scads of different kinds of veggies to get something like the same effect, thereby costing more. Not a lifestyle everyone is capable of.

Ground beef, turkey and chicken is pretty darned cheap and still gives all the necessary protein--it's why poor people settle for ground meats, lunch meats and other heavily-processed meat amterials like hot dogs.

Ungood · 05-05-2008, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seigfried007

Ungood, I know you're enamored as all hell with Pits and won't see anything resembling bad in them, but Old Yeller was not a Pit of any kind. I've done the research. Labs have blocky heads too and Pits look nothing like Labs. They're far too stocky and short-legged for the work required of soemthing like Old Yeller--the all-purpose generic leggy hunting-herding-guard-and-family dog.

Really?

I mean that disagrees with just about everything about this dog that ever was said. As it stands the APBT is one of the most versatile breeds.

Also the first Five (5) Super Dogs (Dogs that hold titles in four UKC events IE: conformation, Obedience, Agility,Weight pull, Dock Jumping, Herding Etc) were APBT, the 6th was a Staffordshire.

and Herding is not beyond them.

So it stands to reason that the APBT was a very "All Around" dog on every level that can be imagined, Far beyond labs or anything else for that matter.

Come to think of it, I think the only dog sport that APBT have not proved their mettle in has been dog racing. Ok... those Greyhounds own.

PUG's are looking good these days as well. They are stepping up to bat in the toy group. It's shocking but the PUG is moving in and even starting to make a name for itself in agility.

have you met Moby and Luna?

I do not see how they look "Stocky" to you. Luna is an American Staffordshire Terrier, Moby is a "Pit Bull Mix/Type" and the guy in Blue is me.

Ungood.

seigfried007 · 05-05-2008, 07:08 PM

Get a lanky dog and you'll see what I mean by Pits being stocky, Ungood

Big blocky heads and everything.

Superdog doesn't test everything and Pits haven't been recognized that long--least not here in the States. They have very heavy chests and large heads for no bigger than the rest of them. Therefore, I define them as being 'stocky' which isn't a bad thing to be.

Most of teh really nifty dogs they show down here as impressive are a lot more stocky than that though, Ungood. I've seen them 80lbs and 3/4 head-n-chest. Nothing but mouths and chests with these dinky legs. Seriously--dogs 24in tall with 6-in legs. Big fighter dog, he was...

Btw, short-distance racing, my bets on the Beagle. Holy crap, that stupid dog can run.

Matthatter · 05-05-2008, 07:15 PM

Wow.

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MattHatter, I'm not telling you how to live, but I can tell you that if it weren't for meat-eating, fur-wearing barbarians, you wouldn't be alive so, obviously, not everything they did was so friggin terrible, hunh?

That was a completely different situation then. Why do you think I mentioned modern technology? Should we support everything that has had something to do with favorable current situations, regardless of how it fits into modern frameworks? Good fucking God.

Why do you bring up poor people when I anticipated your arguments by emphasizing those with enough money? The number one is always the person, all empathy applies to the self. If you aren't able to afford a vegetarian means to survive, than you can't.

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Got news for you: the human alimentary canal was not designed for purely vegetarian living--it's too damned short. Our dental structure is ill-suited to the task but is versatile for a reason. Animals designed to be vegetarians don't look like we do on the inside, buddy.

Buddy? Are you religious or something? Do you think God made us to eat both meat and vegetables, so we should eat both because it is his will? People live healthy on a vegetarian diet everyday sweetheart, welcome to reality.

My balls are also made to spread my genes very efficiently, but you don't see me mounting every hot girl I see.

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What about the idea of living on nothing but canned veggies, beans and peanut butter? Sound good to you?

It's hard to live by reasoned principles, savage.

Me calling you out on your savagery isn't nearly as "rude" as what we put animals through due to our lack of empathy and ridiculous superiority complex. You think the way things have gone are the right way? We are still young as a thinking species; we are stupid, arrogant children with a lot to learn (I am including myself with you sheep because I have no choice but to deal with you).

Fad with the other yuppies? Do you think I like having to tell my friends and family I can't eat meat, and suggest to them that I have problems with their lifestyles? You think this is a joyride for me? I've never done anything because it is "in", but you go ahead and believe that if it will make you sleep well tonight.

The Backward OX · 05-05-2008, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ungood

And Lin.

Glad to see you found something that works for you. Like corpse fucking.

This isn't new. It was rumoured at the time that either the morgue attendants or the undertakers, I forget which, took turns with Marilyn Monroe's corpse.

Or maybe it was both.

Ungood · 05-05-2008, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seigfried007

No, what I'm saying, Ungood, is what percentage of banned breed must be proven. That's where things get tricky. If only APBT's were banned, well, all you have to do is say, "Yes, but my dog isn't a APBT, it's a Cane Corso," or "Well, my dog is precisely one-thirty-second APBT--the rest is Labrador Retriever, Bichon Frise, Boxer and Great Dane, sir."

I would think they couldn't just walk into your house and say, "That dog looks like a pit bull--we have to confiscate it." Without any proof of the breeding, you can't relaly prove what kind of dog it is--particularly with pit bulls and their likeness.

They can and do just exactly that.

"If it Looks like a pit, it is a pit." is the stand for most if not all BSL. No "part" needs to be proven or what percent required. "All mixes and dog in resemblance thereof" is a common stand by most BSL laws. This if it has any linage of a pit Bull

in some cases words like "Pit Bull Type" will be used (Which catches all the other 20 some odd breeds) in it's line. Is it thus banned.

Also other breeds that are "resembling Pit Bulls" get tossed in like the American Blue Blood, American Bull Dog, Boxers, Etc, Etc. On down the List, some states include Doberman, Rotties, mastiffs, All Large Short haired dogs around 50 pounds and above.

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Also, it's kinda hard for some people to get a balanced diet on veggies. How the hell do you expect poor people to get all the proitein they need to be robust, healthy adults on nothing but veggies?

Check out Raw Food Living to find out for yourself. I'll give that eating cooked veggies is impossible to live on, but Raw Food Diet offers some very good alternatives to meat products. I want to mention that I do not advocate or suggest anyone follow this diet for legal reasons. But it is something to consider.

Ungood.