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Old 11-12-2007, 05:32 PM   #1
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THE HEIDEGGER COMPLEX

If one, over time, evenly displays one's self as being both immoral and remorseless, does it affect their credibility to teach other people the difference between right and wrong?

"Sometimes the greatest thinkers make the greatest errors."
-- Martin Heidegger (*)

* Heidegger wrote "Being and Time" in the twenties, and it launched him to international fame and a reputation as one of the greatest philosophers of the twentieth century.

He then went on the join the Nazi party in 1933. And just to emphasize the significance of this year, it was the same year that Hitler was elected to the chancelorship. He was not mobbed into joining, or convinced by family. People were blown away that he WANTED to strongly support the party.

I won't outline the details. He did write damning letters, and betray friends.

After the war, he went through denazification and became a normal, but somewhat terrified, citizen. With the help of some of his literary friends (Sartres and others), Martin Heidegger was again launched to fame.

He died old, and never showed any remorse for the actions of the Third Reich. Everybody wondered why, how it was possible. Most never forgave him.

His book, Being and Time, which is the evolution of phenomenology and doesn't necessarily deal with the subject of morality, is still regarded as one of the greatest philosophical works ever written.


So for those of you don't want to answer the first one, how about "should a person with a questionable character affect their right to have authority over that of others?"
That can be a sub-question.

Sorry for wasting your "being and time" with this long question, but I believe the answers I get will be surprising.

Thanks for listening, and speaking.

d.b.

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Old 11-12-2007, 11:21 PM   #2
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Interesting and thoughtprovoking question, D.B.

1. I think a remorseless person could teach right from wrong, but it would be superficial, based on the logic of consequence perhaps, as apposed to moral convictions. If anyone's ever been in debate class and you get the viewpoint you don't agree with, you can still find grounds for the argument. If a person doesn't have morals, is aware of it, then yes, I think they could teach right from wrong, mimicking the perspective of society and others. Do they lack credibility? Sure. If a serial killer started endorsing a presidential candidate becuase of family values, I don't think most of us are likely to take that to heart... or seriously. So, yes, it hurts credibility.


2. And to that I answer the wonderfully indecisive...it depends. A person who is say, a compulsive gambler could be a perfectly fine elementary school teacher. I guess you have the whole situation of what a questionable character trait is. You're example is rather extreme and I think that's a person I wouldn't let be in charge of an elementary school classroom, for example. So, it depends on what the questionable characteristic is and who the person has authority over (a college classroom less impressionable than an elementary classroom for starters).
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Old 11-12-2007, 11:34 PM   #3
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I know everyone is going to hate me for this, but I actually really like 90% of the Nazi party platform. Everything except for the anti-Jew thing.
At the time, before anyone knew about the holocaust, I probably would have supported him too.

All you have to do is look at the state of US politics to see what a clusterfuck democracy inevitably ends up as. A little Wagnerian holiness and heroism can be good for the soul.
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Old 11-13-2007, 01:11 AM   #4
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Yeah, radical nationalism has panned out so well throughout history. What's not to like about an ideological system that embraces a faulty ideal? Even without the racism thing.
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Old 11-13-2007, 01:57 AM   #5
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The mistake was not to support Hitler's nationalistic ideals. He promised redemption and productivity, two things that Germany had been praying for since WW1.
The great error was remaining supportive even after all the atrocities came to light. This was what could not be forgiven by many. And I have to agree 100%.
There were some things in the beginning that were hopeful about the Nazis, but all that soon changed.
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Old 11-13-2007, 02:08 AM   #6
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What's not to like about an ideological system that embraces a faulty ideal?
Like Marxism or Statism, you mean?
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Old 11-13-2007, 02:08 AM   #7
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Or how about Social Darwinism?
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Old 11-13-2007, 02:13 AM   #8
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Good examples! Social Darwinism is one of the most fundamentally flawed ideologies of the modern world, although Marxism certainly has its merits. It just isn't any good when taken to an extreme. But no idea is.
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Old 11-13-2007, 02:23 AM   #9
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Has anyone read Heidegger's book, "Being and Time"?
I haven't yet. I just started learning about him.
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Old 11-13-2007, 02:30 AM   #10
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I have it, but I haven't read it. But to answer your question, which I didn't do before:

Quote:
If one, over time, evenly displays one's self as being both immoral and remorseless, does it affect their credibility to teach other people the difference between right and wrong?
Yes, it does affect their credibility to teach others, but it doesn't necessarily affect the credibility of their ideas so long as other people teach them. There are usually at least SOME good points or ideas within broader ideologies, but when you have an ideologue teach them, they teach the whole thing, whereas someone else might give it a more fair judgment (such as the difference between Marx or Lenin spouting the virtues of communism and the political science professor at your university who outlines what has worked with communism and what hasn't and why ideals don't transition well into reality most of the time).
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Old 11-13-2007, 02:36 AM   #11
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Yeah, I've read a good chunk of it a long time ago. But he waxes a bit spiritual and metaphysical for my taste. Not really a fan.
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Old 11-13-2007, 04:47 AM   #12
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Yeah, radical nationalism has panned out so well throughout history. What's not to like about an ideological system that embraces a faulty ideal? Even without the racism thing.
I like how well you supported your claims. Good research.
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Old 11-13-2007, 05:10 AM   #13
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So what exactly is entailed in that 90%? The abolishment of free speech and other liberties? Social Darwinism? The extreme nationalist sentiment? Suppression of religion? How about the fascist and totalitarian aspects of it?

The only thing I can really see you supporting is the rejection of democracy, but an authoritarian system is much worse than a democratic one.
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Old 11-13-2007, 07:34 AM   #14
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So what exactly is entailed in that 90%? The abolishment of free speech and other liberties? Social Darwinism? The extreme nationalist sentiment? Suppression of religion? How about the fascist and totalitarian aspects of it?

The only thing I can really see you supporting is the rejection of democracy, but an authoritarian system is much worse than a democratic one.
Yes, as if I have nothing better to do than teach you the political and intellectual history of the 20th century.

I expect you know how to use Google, look it up.

The National Socialist movement was pretty popular in a lot of places up until Germany invaded Czechoslovakia. The way Hitler turned Germany around economically was nothing short of miraculous. He was even Time Magazine's man of the year in either '33 or '34.

The point is of course that hindsight is 20/20.
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Old 11-13-2007, 07:45 AM   #15
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Or actually here, let me help you out. These are the 25 points the NDSAP ran on in 1920 (and won.)

1. We demand the union of all Germany in a Greater Germany on the basis of the right of national self-determination.
2. We demand equality of rights for the German people in its dealings with other nations, and the revocation of the peace treaties of Versailles and Saint-Germain.
3. We demand land and territory (colonies) to feed our people and to settle our surplus population.
4. Only members of the nation may be citizens of the State. Only those of German blood, whatever be their creed, may be members of the nation. Accordingly, no Jew may be a member of the nation.
5. Non-citizens may live in Germany only as guests and must be subject to laws for aliens.
6. The right to vote on the State's government and legislation shall be enjoyed by the citizens of the State alone. We demand therefore that all official appointments, of whatever kind, whether in the Reich, in the states or in the smaller localities, shall be held by none but citizens.
We oppose the corrupting parliamentary custom of filling posts merely in accordance with party considerations, and without reference to character or abilities.
7. We demand that the State shall make it its primary duty to provide a livelihood for its citizens. If it should prove impossible to feed the entire population, foreign nationals (non-citizens) must be deported from the Reich.
8. All non-German immigration must be prevented. We demand that all non-Germans who entered Germany after 2 August 1914 shall be required to leave the Reich forthwith.
9. All citizens shall have equal rights and duties.
10. It must be the first duty of every citizen to perform physical or mental work. The activities of the individual must not clash with the general interest, but must proceed within the framework of the community and be for the general good.

We demand therefore:
11. The abolition of incomes unearned by work.
The breaking of the slavery of interest
12. In view of the enormous sacrifices of life and property demanded of a nation by any war, personal enrichment from war must be regarded as a crime against the nation. We demand therefore the ruthless confiscation of all war profits.
13. We demand the nationalization of all businesses which have been formed into corporations (trusts).
14. We demand profit-sharing in large industrial enterprises.
15. We demand the extensive development of insurance for old age.
16. We demand the creation and maintenance of a healthy middle class, the immediate communalizing of big department stores, and their lease at a cheap rate to small traders, and that the utmost consideration shall be shown to all small traders in the placing of State and municiple orders.
17. We demand a land reform suitable to our national requirements, the passing of a law for the expropriation of land for communal purposes without compensation; the abolition of ground rent, and the prohibition of all speculation in land. *
18. We demand the ruthless prosecution of those whose activities are injurious to the common interest. Common criminals, usurers, profiteers, etc., must be punished with death, whatever their creed or race.
19. We demand that Roman Law, which serves a materialistic world order, be replaced by a German common law.
20. The State must consider a thorough reconstruction of our national system of education (with the aim of opening up to every able and hard-working German the possibility of higher education and of thus obtaining advancement). The curricula of all educational establishments must be brought into line with the requirements of practical life. The aim of the school must be to give the pupil, beginning with the first sign of intelligence, a grasp of the nation of the State (through the study of civic affairs). We demand the education of gifted children of poor parents, whatever their class or occupation, at the expense of the State.
21. The State must ensure that the nation's health standards are raised by protecting mothers and infants, by prohibiting child labor, by promoting physical strength through legislation providing for compulsory gymnastics and sports, and by the extensive support of clubs engaged in the physical training of youth.
22. We demand the abolition of the mercenary army and the foundation of a people's army.
23. We demand legal warfare on deliberate political mendacity and its dissemination in the press. To facilitate the creation of a German national press we demand:
(a) that all editors of, and contributors to newspapers appearing in the German language must be members of the nation;
(b) that no non-German newspapers may appear without the express permission of the State. They must not be printed in the German language;
(c) that non-Germans shall be prohibited by law from participating financially in or influencing German newspapers, and that the penalty for contravening such a law shall be the suppression of any such newspaper, and the immediate deportation of the non-Germans involved.
The publishing of papers which are not conducive to the national welfare must be forbidden. We demand the legal prosecution of all those tendencies in art and literature which corrupt our national life, and the suppression of cultural events which violate this demand.
24. We demand freedom for all religious denominations in the State, provided they do not threaten its existence not offend the moral feelings of the German race.
The Party, as such, stands for positive Christianity, but does not commit itself to any particular denomination. It combats the Jewish-materialistic spirit within and without us, and is convinced that our nation can achieve permanent health only from within on the basis of the principle: The common interest before self-interest.
25. To put the whole of this programme into effect, we demand the creation of a strong central state power for the Reich; the unconditional authority of the political central Parliament over the entire Reich and its organizations; and the formation of Corporations based on estate and occupation for the purpose of carrying out the general legislation passed by the Reich in the various German states.
The leaders of the Party promise to work ruthlessly -- if need be to sacrifice their very lives -- to translate this programme into action.



So yeah. Welfare for the old, education for the young, promoting a vibrant industrious middle class, freedom of speech and religion, equal protection under law, illegalization of war-profiteering, abolition of corporatism, and land reform. All good stuff. My only problem with it is that they define German nationality by race, and their restrictions on the media.
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