Thread: Economic super-powers

Elsewhere on this site it’s been posited that by the end of the century India and China will be the world’s economic super-powers.

I find it interesting that today those countries are turning out stuff at prices which are a fraction of those that would be charged were the same products still made in Western countries.

There has to be a link between the prediction and the fact.

Put another way, is there a message there for Western democracies, a message that says, “Change your ways”?

Originally Posted by The Backward OX

Put another way, is there a message there for Western democracies, a message that says, “Change your ways”?

I'm not sure I want to work 16 hours a day, 7 days a week, for £1 a day making fag lighters in smelly sweatshops so that my country can get rich.

Prior to WW2, Britain being the richest country on earth didn't mean the majority were not living in poverty. They were. We had miners working 12 hrs a day, 6 and a half days a week for a pittance.


We have changed our ways, thank God!


China is already a superpower - not that this fact benefits the ordinary chinaman.

I'm curious which ways you are suggesting need changing? It's hard to compete with the straight up illegal and amoral labour practices of countries where life is cheaper than clean water. I think North America needs to get back to a production-based economy, and this production can take the form of either tangible or intellectual property.

It used to be you needed to own the means of production to make a true profit. These days, you have to own the IP to make a profit, and actually producing it is a (big) bonus. North American governments need to heavily invest in R&D and entrepreneurs willing to find that next generation of technologies that will revolutionize the world, then ensure keep the entire development and production lifecycle "in house."

Sure it will be more expensive, both to set up and manufacture, but it's the only way we'll stay relevant as producers instead of just consumers.

The countries have naff-all to do with it. The fact is that the commodity suppliers apply preferential pricing of raw materials - Having worked with plastics for over 40 years it would be amusing if not so tragic. A 3m x 2m x 3mm sheet of clear acrylic which would have cost me say £20 in the UK could be purchased for £6 in Poland; it came from the same factory in Spain/Germany or wherever. I rang up and said "Can I get someone to buy it for me in Poland and have it delivered to the UK - "NO". It is the big manufacturers who set the agenda, they sell their production to China at a % of the western prices, just as they once did to Romania and Bulgaria and "newly" industrial countries like that, then the wages rise and the production centres move on to another low-cost economy. Shortly these producers will move production from Europe and America to China. The Chinese; who have no copyright laws; will just copy every technique and toss the Dows, the Hoechst, the Bayers et al out of China and the share prices will collapse - China will then farm its labour out to Africa and Arabia as Chinese labour will have become too expensive; the Chinese know this, which is why they are positioning themselves in Zimbabwe, Nigeria, and other countries where the governments can be bought; why they support the Syrian dictatorship - The last thing they need is genuinely democratic governments...

The fact is, the tide of manufacturing moving to China is already starting to change. More companies are beginning to 're-shore' their production of products destined for consumption in North America. They have begun to realize the true costs of doing business there in terms of quality, shipping costs, lead-times, and other soft costs. China is already beginning to lose their cheap-labor status as more and more folks there who build our iPads, iPods, and iPhones are starting to demand wages high enough to actually buy the products they are making. We are not finished yet with companies trying to bolster the bottom line by chasing cheap labor around the world, but that end will come.

Originally Posted by The Backward OX

Elsewhere on this site it’s been posited that by the end of the century India and China will be the world’s economic super-powers.

I find it interesting that today those countries are turning out stuff at prices which are a fraction of those that would be charged were the same products still made in Western countries.

There has to be a link between the prediction and the fact.

Put another way, is there a message there for Western democracies, a message that says, “Change your ways”?

About 1/2 of us are trying to "change our ways." We can't drill for our own oil or even run a pipeline to our refineries because of the environmentalists and their roadblocks. Still, Cuba can drill 71 miles off of our shoreline with outdated equipment and lack of environmental controls. OSHA controls are so tight here that Mexico and other countries look a lot more attractive. Lock out/tag out procedures are the norm so a 30 minute job now requires 2 days of locking and tagging out equipment so it can be worked. We are also so environmentally restricted that it is a lot more cost effective to manufacture a lot of things elsewhere.

Originally Posted by Ditch

About 1/2 of us are trying to "change our ways." We can't drill for our own oil or even run a pipeline to our refineries because of the environmentalists and their roadblocks. Still, Cuba can drill 71 miles off of our shoreline with outdated equipment and lack of environmental controls. OSHA controls are so tight here that Mexico and other countries look a lot more attractive. Lock out/tag out procedures are the norm so a 30 minute job now requires 2 days of locking and tagging out equipment so it can be worked. We are also so environmentally restricted that it is a lot more cost effective to manufacture a lot of things elsewhere.

Oh Ditch, just because Cuba does something does mean you should do it too.
And I wouldn't say it's all environmentalist bull. Most idiocy just comes from the nature of companies and government; it's all administration and politics.

Originally Posted by The Backward OX

Elsewhere on this site it’s been posited that by the end of the century India and China will be the world’s economic super-powers.

I find it interesting that today those countries are turning out stuff at prices which are a fraction of those that would be charged were the same products still made in Western countries.

There has to be a link between the prediction and the fact.

Put another way, is there a message there for Western democracies, a message that says, “Change your ways”?

There's a divide between being the world's sweatshop and an economic power. Apparently China and India are looking outside for cheaper labour now... well, at least starting too.
It helps capital to have a large population that is growing, which the West has neither. That being said, there are still ways for the West to compete. For example, there's a market for advanced toys and entertainment technology China that only the US really has established.
Also, the West was on a housing market bubble as well as a middle class based on the major automotive companies (that had a failing business model for the last... thirty or so years). It was inevitable that things would start going downhill.

Originally Posted by guy_faukes

Oh Ditch, just because Cuba does something does mean you should do it too.
And I wouldn't say it's all environmentalist bull. Most idiocy just comes from the nature of companies and government; it's all administration and politics.

I didn't say it was all environmentalist bull, ​OSHA also has their nose so deep into our production that actual work never gets in the way of a possible audit. Add in the EPA and there we go. In the specific case of oil, I do believe the politicians keep us at the mercy of OPEC.

Originally Posted by The Backward OX

Elsewhere on this site it’s been posited that by the end of the century India and China will be the world’s economic super-powers.

The end of the century is a long time from now, anything can happen by then. I see the trend moving towards corporations becoming tomorrows super powers for which nations will be divvied up by markets and territories. That's my prediction.