Thread: Homework (The name say it all)

But your "didn't go to school just going to teach myself" applicant never would have made it to the interview because he would have scored a 0 on the OCR keyword scan, or if he did his homework on resume writing would have failed miserably on the eyeball check when every entry read "self-taught".

Hey, I'm self-taught in python and I got a $25 per hour job out of it. I am currently working on server monitoring tools for them (for a commercial product they are developing), and I don't have a token piece of paper that says "Server Monitoring Specialist."

For a Brazilian student, that's 4 times the average pay. They value me for my ability to come back the next day with a solution, that's what they told me.

Your argument seems to be students should be allowed to flutter around and read what they want, and then try to pass a test at the end.

Exactly, what is wrong about students studying and reviewing classes however they find it best? Not everyone benefits from taking notes in class (I don't). Not everyone benefits from being forced to do ten or twenty rehashes of the same problem (No one does). Having freedom to chose how to study at home, and bearing the burden of responsibility for your performance teaches you not only to learn by yourself, but to appreciate the value of the knowledge you are being taught.

Repetition of tasks when trying to learn something is always productive.

That line of thought is one of the reasons why the Calculus course is the single biggest wall for most 1st and 2nd semester students. Repeating the same kind of exercises won't get you anywhere, you have to look for different kinds of problems to develop the skills you need. Doing 20 or 30 similar exercises is a huge waste of time, and not at all productive, as the student will most likely fail if that's all he did.

Where to find it? If only there were teachers and textbooks available to assist with this difficult process!

We are comparing guided research and independent studying over enforced homework as complimentary learning tools. Teachers are still the primary source of knowledge.

Challenge. I doubt forcing someone to go search article databases and wikipedia will give a more consistent, accurate and faster result than providing a student a manual, homework exercises that makes them apply the knowledge, and follow up instruction based on the results of the homework.

And the guy who read through a few O'Really and Pro Apress books on the subject between classes will invariably beat them both. Every single teacher will tell you they want their students to go beyond the given material and research on the subject. If that's what teachers want their students to do, and that's what brings the best results ten times out of ten, why shouldn't these practices be encouraged? Research is the single best complimentary learning tool, and the second best learning tool. No assigned homework gives the same results, students who research get better grades than those who don't.

Which brings me to the question: how do teachers validate your researcher's knowledge acquisition without assigning some sort of homework? Or is your solution all in-class testing?

I don't need a solution, I'm quite happy with how most university teachers handle homework. Simply provide the homework, instead of assigning it. It's my responsibility to study at home, and so is the way I study. Of course, as you say, some stuff like projects and papers are of course enforced, but their purpose is to test the student's acquired knowledge.

Originally Posted by elite

Simply provide the homework, instead of assigning it.

I wonder if that's why so many students graduate not knowing how to do simple math, or write a complete sentence. Teacher just says, "Here it is.", and whether the students do it or not is up to them. But they still get the diploma.

Hope my auto mechanic didn't learn that way...

Originally Posted by elite

Hey, I'm self-taught in python and I got a $25 per hour job out of it. I am currently working on server monitoring tools for them (for a commercial product they are developing), and I don't have a token piece of paper that says "Server Monitoring Specialist."

For a Brazilian student, that's 4 times the average pay. They value me for my ability to come back the next day with a solution, that's what they told me.

Then you fit the need and timelines of their organization, which has room for a student worker and the timelines they usually require. My core workers need to know. I was doing a midnight deploy of our website with our team last night, and we had marketing people reviewing pages. A question came up whether we should be spelling everything 1,200/7,000 or 1200/7000 and nobody could think of what Canadian Press Style Guide said. Our writer, who was in the next room, was brought in and they spoke authoritatively, on the spot, even though all his CP books were downtown.

We needed to know on the spot, he knew on the spot. Work continued and our writer earned his pay that day.

Originally Posted by elite

Exactly, what is wrong about students studying and reviewing classes however they find it best? Not everyone benefits from taking notes in class (I don't). Not everyone benefits from being forced to do ten or twenty rehashes of the same problem (No one does). Having freedom to chose how to study at home, and bearing the burden of responsibility for your performance teaches you not only to learn by yourself, but to appreciate the value of the knowledge you are being taught.

Not to stroke your ego, but you've proven many times over here you function at a level far above your typical student. You're a bright guy, and we probably have the same feeling about the act of actually doing homework.

Anything that wasn't in my key field, I hated doing because I'd rather be charting my own course in the area that interested me. Even then, if it was reading an assigned book I would resent being forced to read it, even though I would probably have gotten around to reading it on my own within the next year or so.

I've never suggested you do 20-30 of the same type of work in a go. When I talk about repetition and reinforcement it's in relation to the lessons of the day/week, not the previous lesson above. We agree testing a student's acquired knowledge is important, but I'm in favour of doing it on an ongoing basis through homework so that comprehension can be monitored and improved heading into final testing. You don't need 20-30 of each to do that at a go. Breaking it up over the course of the semester to ensure previous material is retained and new understood works better for your average student.

Originally Posted by elite

We are comparing guided research and independent studying over enforced homework as complimentary learning tools. Teachers are still the primary source of knowledge.

And the guy who read through a few O'Really and Pro Apress books on the subject between classes will invariably beat them both. Every single teacher will tell you they want their students to go beyond the given material and research on the subject. If that's what teachers want their students to do, and that's what brings the best results ten times out of ten, why shouldn't these practices be encouraged? Research is the single best complimentary learning tool, and the second best learning tool. No assigned homework gives the same results, students who research get better grades than those who don't.

Nobody is going to argue students who work harder and do more out of class work outperform those that only read the manual.

But a student that goes to class, takes the lecture, reads the textbook, reads the suggested readings, looks for stuff on his own, and then does the homework does even better, and has demostrated it. More importantly, the student that does all of the above then makes mistakes on the homework can be clearly identified and corrected on the spot, until waiting for a major term paper, project, or final exam to inform them of their mistake by docking them major points on major assignments.

I'd rather figure out I'm wrong on a piece of homework that has a small impact on my mark than on the final worth 30%, or even the term paper worth 20%.

Originally Posted by elite

I don't need a solution, I'm quite happy with how most university teachers handle homework. Simply provide the homework, instead of assigning it. It's my responsibility to study at home, and so is the way I study. Of course, as you say, some stuff like projects and papers are of course enforced, but their purpose is to test the student's acquired knowledge.

Then we agree! Teachers can provide homework to students, and if the students don't provide it back they get a zero.

Originally Posted by Capulet

Then you fit the need and timelines of their organization, which has room for a student worker and the timelines they usually require. My core workers need to know. I was doing a midnight deploy of our website with our team last night, and we had marketing people reviewing pages. A question came up whether we should be spelling everything 1,200/7,000 or 1200/7000 and nobody could think of what Canadian Press Style Guide said. Our writer, who was in the next room, was brought in and they spoke authoritatively, on the spot, even though all his CP books were downtown.

True, the guy who looks over me works much faster than I do. I am some times impressed by how fast he gets things done. He could be my father though, I guess that's what experience gives you.

We agree testing a student's acquired knowledge is important, but I'm in favour of doing it on an ongoing basis through homework so that comprehension can be monitored and improved heading into final testing. You don't need 20-30 of each to do that at a go. Breaking it up over the course of the semester to ensure previous material is retained and new understood works better for your average student.

In the university I'm currently attending to the evaluations are well spread out. Math courses grade students with three tests spread through the semester, 25% each, and three mock tests that we do the week before the real ones being the remaining 25%. Our programming classes had 60% in three tests, 20% in periodical practical exercises, and the final 20% being the final project. I think it's a fine system because you can either take it easy if you're not having trouble with it, or try hard if you are having trouble.

I'd rather figure out I'm wrong on a piece of homework that has a small impact on my mark than on the final worth 30%, or even the term paper worth 20%.

I'd rather figure out I'm wrong on a piece of homework and not have my mark impacted at all. That's a win-win scenario.

Then we agree! Teachers can provide homework to students, and if the students don't provide it back they get a zero.

Clever... very clever.

Anyway, at this point we can agree that we have slightly different opinions that got overblown by exaggerated writing. It all comes down to you believing homework should be enforced and me believing it should be optional but still provided by the teacher.

Originally Posted by elite

True, the guy who looks over me works much faster than I do. I am some times impressed by how fast he gets things done. He could be my father though, I guess that's what experience gives you.

True. Experience, or "having done things repeatedly", is hard to replace. There's a lot of value to actually doing something over and over again. I completely agree 10 questions on integration in one session won't help anyone love calculus, but 5 questions spread over the balance of homework assignments in a semester will keep it fresh and provide reinforcement.

Originally Posted by elite

In the university I'm currently attending to the evaluations are well spread out. Math courses grade students with three tests spread through the semester, 25% each, and three mock tests that we do the week before the real ones being the remaining 25%. Our programming classes had 60% in three tests, 20% in periodical practical exercises, and the final 20% being the final project. I think it's a fine system because you can either take it easy if you're not having trouble with it, or try hard if you are having trouble.

I'd rather figure out I'm wrong on a piece of homework and not have my mark impacted at all. That's a win-win scenario.[/quote]
There's two tiers in this argument for me: K12 and post secondary. K12 is state-mandated, and part of what we consider is our obligation to the next generation. Children can't be trusted to buckle down and do the work needed to make your suggested system above work. They need a higher level of guidance and foundational direction that a structured homework system supports.

You're discussing pretty much purely at the post secondary level, which is a voluntary effort by these students. If they want to pay the money and not do the work, that's their option. If they're in a program with limited seating, I hope they wash out early so someone that wants to do the work can get in. The system you are advocating is out there in many institutions and meets the needs of many students.

I'm not against it, it's just personal opinion that some students still need to have that carrot stuck out in front of them. Like the kid says in his letter, where's the reward? The institution has it in their interest to graduate the best qualified candidates, so that their school can display high hire rates, and charge higher tuitions accordingly. Yes, universities are businesses too! If you wanted to weight homework at 0 I'm not against that, but I'd want to add "all homework assignments must be submitted to pass the course." That way all your marks come from the tests and projects and final exams you list above, but homework is still in place for it's biggest benefits: repetition, validation, and correction.

Originally Posted by elite

Clever... very clever.

Anyway, at this point we can agree that we have slightly different opinions that got overblown by exaggerated writing. It all comes down to you believing homework should be enforced and me believing it should be optional but still provided by the teacher.

Yup! We tend to agree on a lot of stuff but get bogged down in semantics, which is fine. I enjoy reading where your experience and perspective has taken you in a slightly different direction.

I consider homework a way of excelling student progress through increased exposure to the subject. You can cover a lot more ground if the student puts the learned concepts into practice in his or her spare time.

Sure, you can do everything strictly in the classroom. But homework students will blow the classroom-only students out of the water in progress and proficiency.

I am, though, impressed by the fifth grader's paper. It's quite good for his age! At fifth grade I was writing purple prose about dragons. lol

It is a well established fact, that the harder you work, the better you do. Students with lower IQs consistently do better than those with high IQs who don't work as hard. The world is full of moderately intelligent people doing very well indeed because they really work for it; meanwhile the bright ones sit around telling each other how clever they are. At the very top of the tree in terms of advancing the sum of human achievement in science, arts and pure thought, are the genii who also work really hard.

i don't know why its even worthy of debate. children are children, they don't have the same rights as adults. and, no matter how much you hate homework, its not slavery.

BUT if we are going to entertain the irritating brat of a 5th grader who wrote such nonsense, then we should probably remind him that the main flaw with his argument is that he (i'm assuming its a he) is not recognizing the proper definitions of 'punishment' and 'reward'. the main difference between doing homework and, i don't know, working in a cotton field is that the intent behind the former is to benefit the worker, not the institution, through an intensive and disciplined learning process. true slavery, on the other hand, benefits only the institution. we can debate whether or not homework has real benefit for the child, but it certainly has no benefit for the teacher. schools are designed to benefit children.

however, if the adult parent disagrees about homework i also think its obvious that not only should home-schooling be tolerated but encouraged and unregulated.

Originally Posted by luckyscars

i don't know why its even worthy of debate. children are children, they don't have the same rights as adults. and, no matter how much you hate homework, its not slavery.

BUT if we are going to entertain the irritating brat of a 5th grader who wrote such nonsense, then we should probably remind him that the main flaw with his argument is that he (i'm assuming its a he) is not recognizing the proper definitions of 'punishment' and 'reward'.

Interesting. So in America, I don't have as much rights as my teachers and fellow adults. Thats a load of crap and you know it. Everything in the U.S. Constitution is for every American citizen from birth to death.
My problem with homework is: If you already know it by heart, then do it 50 more times. In the essay when the boy talks about reenforcement, he says,

Now, we have "The action of making certain that people learn again." Ouch! Must we learn again something we've learned the same day?

If I can do it by heart, why should I do the practice? In the real world if your boss tells you to do something that you can do with your eyes closed, you wouldn't go home and practice.
Practice (homework) is good if your struggling with a subject, but if you know it well, should we really be practicing it over and over? Will that make us smarter?
Why can't we let the students decide if they need the practice or not? Isn't life all about the choices we make, not the choices others make for us?

Originally Posted by luckyscars

we can debate whether or not homework has real benefit for the child, but it certainly has no benefit for the teacher. schools are designed to benefit children.

If your struggling, the homeworks there for you. If your not struggling, you should be able to opt out. It's a benefit when you need the help, but a nuisance when you don't. I like what elite was saying about his university's take on homework:

Originally Posted by elite

"You can find examples and exercises of X in Y book, page Z. There is a test in two weeks."

Originally Posted by elite

That line of thought is one of the reasons why the Calculus course is the single biggest wall for most 1st and 2nd semester students. Repeating the same kind of exercises won't get you anywhere, you have to look for different kinds of problems to develop the skills you need. Doing 20 or 30 similar exercises is a huge waste of time, and not at all productive, as the student will most likely fail if that's all he did.

That's also one my biggest problem with homework elite.

Originally Posted by luckyscars

BUT if we are going to entertain the irritating brat of a 5th grader who wrote such nonsense...

The kid is not a brat, but a genious. True, I don't exactly believe the slavery part, but the rest of the paper is pure genious. As Dresden James once quoted:

"A truth’s initial commotion is directly
proportional to how deeply the lie was believed. It wasn’t the world being round
that agitated people, but that the world wasn’t flat. When a well-packaged web
of lies has been sold gradually to the masses over generations, the truth will
seem utterly preposterous and its speaker a raving lunatic."

Debating homework is just like what Dresden James said. When we're so used to homework as an everyday occurance, debating homework seems preposterous and nonsense. Argue as you will, you will not sway me.

Originally Posted by Raptor980

Interesting. So in America, I don't have as much rights as my teachers and fellow adults. Thats a load of crap and you know it. Everything in the U.S. Constitution is for every American citizen from birth to death.

By law and as a matter of common sense, parents are responsible for their children, because they aren’t always capable of making good decisions for themselves. That means, theoretically at least, the parents are in charge. Minors also have certain restrictions for the same reasons -- they can’t drive cars or fly planes or own guns etc. So the law views minors and adults differently. We now know that frontal lobe, the part of the brain where decisions are made, isn’t fully developed until people are well out of their teens -- so it seems there is good reason for putting those restriction on minors -- they are actually more inclined to do things on impulse rather than thinking them through. How many times have you heard a parent say to a teen -- what were you thinking? Well, there’s a good chance he or she wasn’t.

I think you would agree, children should go to school. We even have truancy laws in place because of parents who can’t or won’t see to it that their children attend. Parents who are legally responsible for their children and who can’t home school have to at least temporarily abdicate some responsibility to teachers and administrators -- and that means going along with the school methods and policies – and that includes homework. There’s nothing in the Constitution that protects children from having to do what they are told, if it isn’t harmful to the child and if the adults involved – in this case, parents and teachers, decide that’s what’s best for him.

Kids can argue that homework isn’t of any value – and they should -- but in the end, they don’t really have any say in it. Too bad. Some day they can make the case for their own kids, or home school or get involved with the school board or even become educators themselves and work for change. But when they're in school, they pretty much have to suck it up and do it.

BTW -- I am not a proponent of loads of homework. But to me, it’s not an either or proposition – but a question of balance. An hour or so of effort to reinforce what what’s been taught or to develop good work or study habits is not unreasonable.

Originally Posted by Raptor980

Everything in the U.S. Constitution is for every American citizen from birth to death.

The Constitution may be, but many laws make a clear distinction between children and adults - including having to attend school.

At any rate, for those who have no problem with the subject matter, homework is a piece of cake - and frankly, I always found it a challenge to put more into the assignments than was requested. And obviously, those who have trouble with the subject matter will get the practice and progressive help they need to understand it. But frankly, the day I listen to a fifth grader regarding what's best for educating children - well, that's a long day coming.

Originally Posted by shadowwalker

At any rate, for those who have no problem with the subject matter, homework is a piece of cake.

That may be, but it still wastes my time and other people's time.

Originally Posted by shadowwalker

But frankly, the day I listen to a fifth grader regarding what's best for educating children - well, that's a long day coming.

I never said you had to believe everything he said, but a lot of what he said is true. Your just judging someone by their age. If a 90 year old wrote it, you'd probably listen to every word he said.
Don't judge someone by their age.

Originally Posted by Raptor980

If a 90 year old wrote it, you'd probably listen to every word he said.

Naw -- I'd just think he was losing it.

Originally Posted by Raptor980

That may be, but it still wastes my time and other people's time.

I never said you had to believe everything he said, but a lot of what he said is true. Your just judging someone by their age. If a 90 year old wrote it, you'd probably listen to every word he said.
Don't judge someone by their age.

I'm not judging by age but by experience and knowledge. Not to mention that kids, just because they are kids, want things to be fun, and they don't want anyone telling them things like "Set the table.", "Wash your hands.", "Make your bed.", and yes - "Do your homework."

Originally Posted by shadowwalker

I'm not judging by age but by experience and knowledge. Not to mention that kids, just because they are kids, want things to be fun, and they don't want anyone telling them things like "Set the table.", "Wash your hands.", "Make your bed.", and yes - "Do your homework."

You guys are focusing on criticizing me and not on the topic, it seems.