Thread: "Garbage" and a little chat about feminism

So I wrote this little reflection on a prompt from my English Professor.

I am moving this week. I am a feminist. I am moving to a place in the city where apparently noise is something included in the rent. My neighbor plays offensive music that rattles my hard wood floors. The music itself comes from a junky ford explorer with a trailer hooked to the back, piled high with garbage. The music is rude and the speakers delivering its profanity do not handle the bass well. I am sick of artists using what is supposed to be intelligent, coherent thought to slandarize women. We are not massed produced. You cannot buy me at giggles.

The 'assignment', if you would call it that, was to take ten minutes and write as much as you could based upon the word 'Garbage'. Like a couple of other people, I read mine aloud. The second line of the narrative says I am a feminist. When I read that line half of the class laughed. Now, feminism has got to be one of the top three things I identify myself with and I find it hard to believe that in America (I have lived in Europe and feel that at least to a limited degree I can compare) for all of our 'forward' thinking, it is insane the lengths we go to ignore inequality. Not just against women, but women are the principle subject of our discussion. Another student in the class read his essay, too. It was a highly descriptive piece with fairly basic American language about the literal term Garbage. How he did not want to take it out, how somethings people do are garbage, how people 'talk' garbage. He said it with the flow of a rap song, and at the end everyone laughed jovially and agreed that it was good. Though I can understand how people my age (I am 21) can relate more to 'taking out the trash' than social politics, but based on my own personal experiences at home and at school, how little support I get for wanting to better the opportunities and social and economic standing of women, I really wanted to try and get a discussion going. I want to know what people think. Do you believe that feminism is a worthy cause? Do you believe that women are currently undervalued and mistreated in American society? In any society? How? Do you think feminists are absolutely crazy and deluded? Do you think women have equal status already? Do you think that women are equal, but that they are simply not viewed as equal in the political spectrum? Are you a feminist? I really want to know, especially from men, I'd love to hear what you all think on this issue. And no, I'm not one of those crazy people who is going to stalk you with violent and offensive review if you disagree with the cause lol

They laughed when you said you were a feminist?

Sounds to me like they're just immature, and, quite possibility, some of them don't even know what the word means.

I think women have gained considerable ground in the quest for fair and equal treatment, at least in America, though there still remains noticable gaps where women lag behind men in terms of treatment, such as the average male's salary being higher compared to the average female's salary for comparable positions.

Of course, you'll have rap music where women are slandered and referred to as objects and worse. I wouldn't consider it a reflection of inequality, though. It's more a reflection of the rap mentality, in which the more you brag about money, posessions, and the girls you "own" the more respect you get. There could probably be a very interesting discussion on the effects of the hiphop culture on impressionable youths, though that's kind of going off on a tangent.

Overall I feel, at least in American society, women are treated pretty well. I don't see any glaring injustices that I can think of. I can't say the same for some Middel-Eastern cultures, however.

Some outrageous injustices against women:


A woman being immobilized in the ground in Iran, 2004, in preparation for her punishment: stoning.


In Gaza, nine year old girls committed into marriage with young men. It's legal to have sex with a nine year old girl there, by the way. Under eight it's frowned upon, but oral and anal sex is still permitted. (WTF?!)

Female genital mutilation, in order to deprive women of sexual pleasure. Here a young Egyptian girl is having her clitoris "surgically" removed, using a razor blade, scissors, and no anesthetics.

There's definately a need for female equality, especially considering the above examples should never be happening, in any part of the world, to anyone. But they do. In more modernized societies, though, there seems to be no unfair subjugation.

I think feminism is a worthy cause, but it's a difficult battle to wage, especially in cultures where women are considered forms of property. Consider journalist Lara Logan, and how she was gang-raped and beaten in Cairo when reporting during a mob celebration. While we consider it horrendous, the men involved likely believed it was well within their rights as "men" to do with her whatever they wished.

The way she was initially rescued, by Cairo women shielding her and protecting her, communicates that this was not something unusual.. but sadly, something common, as they appeared to immediately know what to do, as if it, likely, happens alot there.

I'd like to see women treated respectfully and equally in many of those middle-eastern cultures, but I have a feeling it won't happen any time soon. : \

Originally Posted by saintenitouche

Do you believe that feminism is a worthy cause?

No, because the cause is too fragmented and women-centric (hence the *fem*), and any cause that needs to focus on the needs of one sex/gender over the other is NOT egalitarian, hence I find that most feminism has an internal contradiction. "Equal rights for women." If it was for equal rights, it wouldn't need to be for any group in particular but for humanity itself. Few feminists are willing to look into the issues of men and boys. Those few who do, like Christina Hoff Sommers, are ostracized from the movement.

I treat men and woman as human beings, each as individual people. Some say that makes me a feminist but I absolutely reject that label because there are people out there who call themselves feminists who hate men. I'm not going to give them more power by taking on the same label and adding one more to their ranks. Also, I think the label has far overstayed its usefulness. I think we can move on to gender egalitarianism or individualism at this point.

Originally Posted by saintenitouche

Do you believe that women are currently undervalued and mistreated in American society?

Nope, I see quite the opposite. Misandry is far more prevalent in US culture than misogyny. Few even know what the word misandry means. The number of women's college scholarships, women's programs, women's grants, sate programs, federal contracts, welfare/social programs, charities, and medical funding for women as compared to men is shockingly one-sided. Any violence against women is met with harsh opposition, while violence against men is mitigated and many times made humorous. See Sharron Osborn's little stint on "The Talk" when she made fun of a man who had his genitals forcefully removed and mutilated. To imagine the sexes reversed is to be in some kind of dystopian fantasy world where a woman's genital mutilation is met with hilarity.

Originally Posted by saintenitouche

In any society?

Sure, plenty of other women have it bad in other societies. I'd like that changed for the better.

Originally Posted by saintenitouche

Do you think feminists are absolutely crazy and deluded?

Depends on the feminist. Most are good, egalitarian-minded people. The material of women's studies courses however I consider to be gynocentric and has no counter-balance or critique.

Originally Posted by saintenitouche

Do you think women have equal status already?

Depends on the place and depends on what you mean by "equal."

Originally Posted by saintenitouche

Do you think that women are equal, but that they are simply not viewed as equal in the political spectrum?

Still depends on the term equal, and I don't know why the political spectrum would matter.

Originally Posted by saintenitouche

Are you a feminist?

Nope.

Feminism, the belief that there should be equality between the genders, is a wonderful and worthwhile cause that the vast majority of intelligent people agree with, in my experience.

However, too many of them (especially the highschoolers and middleschoolers I've worked with) associate the word "feminist" with pissed off women who try too hard to be dominant. And they have to wear suits with big puffy shoulders. And they're probably lesbians. And they get offended easily. This strong stereotype has been reinforced by movies and tv shows, and has not, for the most part, been counteracted by individuals who champion feminism, because there are decidedly few vocal and visible supporters that highschoolers notice and care about.

I do my best to disillusion the kids I work with of this stereotype, but somehow that image has been ingrained with the word. Honestly, your class mates probably wouldn't laugh at the idea of equality... they've probably also simply been overly-affected by the media and haven't had the chance to get smarter yet. "Women's rights activist" or a new word like "equalist" or "equalitarian" might get a better reaction. I don't know -- teaching is better than confronting, though. If they are in college, they really ought to know better by now. Really, kids these days.

Originally Posted by j.w.olsen

pissed off women who try too hard to be dominant. And they have to wear suits with big puffy shoulders. And they're probably lesbians.

Hah! Those women are so hot.

well, this is probably a huge mistake on my part, but i'll go ahead and voice the opposing view to the feminist movement.
i happen to believe it's been one of the most destructive movements to american culture and society since the mid-20th century.
and it's not that i'm in anyway opposed to women having equal legal rights. and really, our definitions of "feminism" may be
completely different. so you may not even be the type of "feminist" i even have in mind. but i see the feminist as being an
extremely destructive force to the family and family values. this woman doesn't seem to recognize the strengths of womanhood,
and therefore hopes to become a man or "mannish" in the eyes of society. and when she becomes that which is no longer
representative of true feminine strength; not only herself, but the family structure which a moral society is based upon becomes
corrupted and weakened through her disregarding the true nature of woman.

Originally Posted by j.w.olson

However, too many of them (especially the highschoolers and middleschoolers I've worked with) associate the word "feminist" with pissed off women who try too hard to be dominant.... And they get offended easily.

That's what a feminist is. Feminism has nothing to do with supporting both genders as equal partners in society; it's about certain women being female chauvinistic pigs, and I normally don't bother reading past the word 'feminist' for this reason.
You tell me that women should be equal partners in society and I'll support that assessment. You start throwing 'feminism' at me, and I'll see it as a sexist campaign against all men.

Originally Posted by KyleColorado

Overall I feel, at least in American society, women are treated pretty well. I don't see any glaring injustices that I can think of. I can't say the same for some Middel-Eastern cultures, however.
: \

Thanks for your input! my problem in American society has a lot to do with how Women are portrayed in the media, I feel like this is a social injustice. Women are represented as sexual tools and underclass because of a general (I mean that very lightly) to be passive aggressive or submissive in the home. Also I feel like domestic roles have become a taboo, as well as obviously the statistics on domestic violence. Also as defined (literally) as a social class, women have to make due with the opportunities the women around them already are subject to, which severely limits advancement particularly in the huge increase of lower income homes. Also the sexual exploitation of women really pisses me off >:O

Lol MFM, you didn't really have to answer every question, I was just trying to be exact. My boyfriend is of the same opinion and though I see where you are coming from I do have to reinforce that feminism is not a movement for a female hierarchy. Women are a minority. Your points here make me think, well, if someone in a crowd made a seriously racial slur we could stand against the racial slur but we couldn't acknowledge the presence of racism in our society because doing that would be too 'black' or too 'asian' or whatever. Feminism is simply taking a social class that suffers to the point where it can be defined a social problem and advocating for its status to be raised to that of a white man's. It's the same as saying black rights or whatever. If you don't feel like women suffer from anything in particular in America than that's fine, but if you study the media you may change your mind.

Originally Posted by dale

well, this is probably a huge mistake on my part, but i'll go ahead and voice the opposing view to the feminist movement.
i happen to believe it's been one of the most destructive movements to american culture and society since the mid-20th century.
and it's not that i'm in anyway opposed to women having equal legal rights. and really, our definitions of "feminism" may be
completely different. so you may not even be the type of "feminist" i even have in mind. but i see the feminist as being an
extremely destructive force to the family and family values. this woman doesn't seem to recognize the strengths of womanhood,
and therefore hopes to become a man or "mannish" in the eyes of society. and when she becomes that which is no longer
representative of true feminine strength; not only herself, but the family structure which a moral society is based upon becomes
corrupted and weakened through her disregarding the true nature of woman.

I certainly don't want to be a man dale, I love being a girl way too much You are being very general however, I'm not sure how you define the strengths of womanhood or feminine strength. Though, if I understand your context, I do greatly respect the role of women in the home. It is a very very tough role and mothers deserve society's respect. I do not believe that feminism takes away from motherhood, however. And I think that Women have should engage in duties outside the home as well and take an active role in society. If they choose not to, though, that's cool too. So long as women are deciding for themselves and are happy.

Originally Posted by Rustgold

That's what a feminist is. Feminism has nothing to do with supporting both genders as equal partners in society; it's about certain women being female chauvinistic pigs, and I normally don't bother reading past the word 'feminist' for this reason.
You tell me that women should be equal partners in society and I'll support that assessment. You start throwing 'feminism' at me, and I'll see it as a sexist campaign against all men.

Ok rustgold, because of you we're going to change the movement to the 'equal partners in society' group, okay? no chauvinistic pigs here. xD Honestly though I've never met a feminist that fits the ever-present stereotype, we're all pretty easy going and just passionate about the way our world operates. We're pretty good looking too if I do say so myself, no shoulder pads or anything!

Originally Posted by saintenitouche

Thanks for your input! my problem in American society has a lot to do with how Women are portrayed in the media, I feel like this is a social injustice. Women are represented as sexual tools and underclass because of a general (I mean that very lightly) to be passive aggressive or submissive in the home.

I'm not sure I completely follow what you're trying to say here. You're saying, women are represented as sexual objects, and portrayed as being passive-aggressive or submissive in the home?

I agree with the sexual object argument, but I don't really understand the correlation between passive-aggression and submission. Did you mean, simply, "passive"?

I assume you meant to say, you feel the media assigns a role to women; that of submission, and sexual objectification.

I agree that women are used for their sex appeal. But I don't view it as a form of subjugation. Most women, I imagine even yourself, take pride in the fact that men are attracted to you. Many women wear tight clothing and short skirts, not because it's demanded of them, but because they choose to do so.

I'll agree with you if you want to argue that the media encourages impressionable young girls to flaunt their own sexuality, but I don't agree that it's a form of oppression or an example of inequality.

The entertainment industry is definately sexualized, mostly because sex-appeal sells. But I don't see that as a valid argument for feminism. I'm open to hear your thoughts on it, though.

Originally Posted by saintenitouche

Also I feel like domestic roles have become a taboo, as well as obviously the statistics on domestic violence.

What exactly do you mean by "domestic roles have become taboo"?

Domestic violence is atrocious, I agree. But are you pointing to domestic violence as a reflection of female inequality?

Originally Posted by saintenitouche

Also as defined (literally) as a social class, women have to make due with the opportunities the women around them already are subject to, which severely limits advancement particularly in the huge increase of lower income homes.

Employment opportunites are definately an area where women still lag behind men. I agree with you on this. The gap is, fortunately, shrinking though, and there are becomming more women in high income positions. Consider Mary Callahan Erdoes, CEO of JP Morgan Private Bank, touted recently on the cover of several magazines under the title "The Trillion Dollar Woman". That's certainly got to be a victory for feminist activists.

I don't, however, understand your connection between that and lower income homes..?

Originally Posted by sainenitouche

Also the sexual exploitation of women really pisses me off >:O

If you girls would stop being so damn sexy, then maybe I'll stop drooling. Until then, no deal!

Originally Posted by saintenitouche

I do have to reinforce that feminism is not a movement for a female hierarchy.

That does depend on what feminism you're referring to. Yes most of it, the vast majority, is fairly harmless. But there is subtext in the word patriarchy, whether egalitarian feminists recognize it as such.

Originally Posted by saintenitouche

Women are a minority.

Women make up 51% of the population. How can they be a minority? Okay, I get what you mean, but if you look with gender-neutral glasses at our society as a whole, say, how a man from mars would =P, then you'll see a lot of things you'd normally miss. We can't recognize the smell of our houses while we're in them, similarly we cannot recognize the advantages we have unless we take a step back. I'm sure you ask men to examine their privilege, so I hope you'd do the same. Women, as a whole, hold more privilege than men do simply because of the benefits that the state and society gives them. Taking into account the leniency under the law and all the social programs that benefit women with the lack of such programs that benefit men, it should tell you who has more privilege. Feminism is responsible for that, whether you think that's a good thing or not. To me, in that light, feminism is not an egalitarian organization but a female advocacy group. I don't have a problem with female advocacy groups, and if feminists had the consistency to call themselves such then I wouldn't have such a problem with the label itself.

Originally Posted by saintenitouche

if someone in a crowd made a seriously racial slur we could stand against the racial slur but we couldn't acknowledge the presence of racism in our society because doing that would be too 'black' or too 'asian' or whatever.

If someone made a racial slur, then the guilt is on them the individual, not on society because society isn't a living, breathing being that has the capability of choice, let alone action. People learn things from people. People do things to people. The word Society is just a label for human interaction, just as Evolution is a description of a process. Neither are physical things. Thus you cannot blame a society, only the people within it, and since people are all individuals, you have to look at individual action, i.e. the racist not the racism.

How that relates to feminism is that they superimpose an opinion on society when society is not a thing. What one or several people within an area think does not determine what everyone else thinks. So a push to change society's status or opinion of women cannot work by artificial means. Opinions emerge and evolve over time. So what the feminist can do is go to the individual instead of focusing on society, the rape culture, or other phantoms that get blamed.

Originally Posted by saintenitouche

Feminism is simply taking a social class that suffers to the point where it can be defined a social problem and advocating for its status to be raised to that of a white man's.

Suffering as identified by who? Defined as a social problem by who? Advocating for its status to be raised by who? If feminists are the answers to any of those questions then you have a conflict of interest that avoids objective truth for a perpetuation of ideology.

For example:

Is a wife oppressed because she must stay at home instead of working? To the feminist, the answer is yes, because she is dependent on her husband and lacks the freedom he does. Essentially, she is not her own person. Social stigma and ostracism might guide her to do it when she doesn't really want to. However would it not be just as valid to say that the man is oppressed because he must work for his wife? Does society not pressure him to work for her? Does that turn him from a human being to a human doing? Is that not textbook objectification? Which is more oppressed: the farmer, or the ox pulling the plow? Who benefits from the other's work? That paints a completely different picture from the feminist view of history. To me, the world is not so one-sided, and I doubt the feminist view is the one correct side.

That, and I have a problem with the phrase "status to be raised to a white man's", as if white people were a homogenized group (saying the same to any other race would be considered racist) or that men were a homogenized group (generalizing women like that would be considered sexist).

Originally Posted by saintenitouche

If you don't feel like women suffer from anything in particular in America than that's fine, but if you study the media you may change your mind.

Indeed I have, but I see how it portrays men. The amount of misandry in the US is abhorrent while there is little or no misogyny anymore, and if it is, it's usually met with stern opposition. I cannot even think of one instance where the rape of a woman was shown or discussed in a positive light, but the rape, sometimes gang-rape (sorry, sodomy, men can't be raped in certain US states) of a man is humorous, i.e. "don't drop the soap." Switch the roles and you'd have a s***storm. But in this culture, this world, it goes unchecked and unnoticed. That should tell you a lot about the status of men vs the status of women. Now my question is, if feminism were so egalitarian, why aren't the feminists fighting that tooth and nail? Actions speak louder than words, and their inaction tells me a lot.

Originally Posted by KyleColorado

I think feminism is a worthy cause, but it's a difficult battle to wage, especially in cultures where women are considered forms of property. Consider journalist Lara Logan, and how she was gang-raped and beaten in Cairo when reporting during a mob celebration. While we consider it horrendous, the men involved likely believed it was well within their rights as "men" to do with her whatever they wished.

The way she was initially rescued, by Cairo women shielding her and protecting her, communicates that this was not something unusual.. but sadly, something common, as they appeared to immediately know what to do, as if it, likely, happens alot there.

These groups tend to receive funding and support from Saudi organisations. $6,000 for those who can convert a girl sees many women being raped in Egypt. Yes, sadly a common occurrence in Egypt.

Originally Posted by saintenitouche

Ok rustgold, because of you we're going to change the movement to the 'equal partners in society' group, okay? no chauvinistic pigs here. xD Honestly though I've never met a feminist that fits the ever-present stereotype, we're all pretty easy going and just passionate about the way our world operates.

Section E of the Australian Anti-Discrimination Act is a clause permitting discrimination on the basis of 'historical disadvantage'. PC Feminists who control the department adjudicate this to mean it's legal to discriminate against men (along with whites). Look it up, and tell me that this & feminism isn't a PC war against men.

Btw : No I don't like how modern society campaigns for the sexualisation of young girls or how Saudi Arabia funds the oppression of women, but feminism is another hate tool and deserves criticism as such.

A lot of the ground I've covered in previous threads has already been restated here before me. I don't trust modern feminism. I think the second you say "Group name"'s rights, you've lost. The organized feminist movement is a joke now that it's commercialized. Never trust any group whose mission is to remove their need and source of income. Gloria Steinem would crap herself if there was no more need for her books and speaking engagements.

You call yourself a feminist. That's awesome. You fight for the rights of women? Great. I know lots of people that fight for the rights of whites. They have white-pride, and they want to make sure they are represented fairly and equally. Racist? Perhaps. Is that any worse than genderism?

Any law, be it Title IX, affirmative action, or any other host of well-meaning forms of bias is still bias. You cannot say "we have prevented racism by taking the job from the most qualified candidate and given it to someone less qualified because of their gender." THAT is the textbook definition of sexism, and can never provide a solution. Men and women are not equal in every way, as groups or individuals. What they do have is equal rights and protections under the law.

I ask: if you sitting in judgment, and someone came up to you and said, "your Honour, I was the best qualified applicant for this position, but they told me they didn't hire me because I'm the wrong gender" what would you say? Would your answer change based on the gender of the speaker? Because that's the way the law is written right now.

Defending human rights is never wrong. Feminism does not accomplish this task in its current form. They are the problem, and that's why people laugh when the word gets thrown around. I would submit your classmates didn't laugh because they were too immature to take feminism seriously, but because they're at that magical age where they're old enough to see the truth, but still young enough not to hide the proper reaction to it.