Thread: An issue of sexuality?

Originally Posted by Capulet

Agreed. I just think the number would be reduced if society provided a more accepting environment for those wishing to act more like the opposite gender without having to change the equipment.

Yeah, societal pressure plays into it, but it's also just an intrinsic sense of comfort, feeling like you're in the right form. I've took a philosophy course on sexuality and gender, and to see transgendered people talk about, on one level, there's social influence, but on another level, it's like "this body really doesn't feel right, it's like I feel like I'm out of form... I want it to match up."

There was a transgendered woman back in my hometown. She dressed and walked like a woman. Everybody knew who she was (and it being a small town), and the pure vitriol that went her way was intense. But, she still went to the bar, still walked about, dressed and walked like a woman. If her surgery was purely because of societal pressure, I doubt she would be so committed to her change. Is that representative of the transgendered community, I don't know. There's bound to be other complicating factors.

Originally Posted by Capulet

Well, one major difference is that, if I stood there and waiting 13 years, puberty would occur on its own. Surgery is a choice, and would not happen without someone making a decision and pursuing it.

Parents have full control of a child's health decisions until they are of age. They can determine what shots they get, when they get medical care, where they get it, etc.

Let me ask you: should parents have the right to order a sex change operation for their child, like they could a series of shots, and just like those shots do so without the consent of the child?

My answer would be no. A parent does not have a right to make such a major, elective decision regarding their child's body and health.

Leading from that, children are not fully formed mentally, and just like they can't sign contracts, vote, or make many other medical or major decisions until they are of age, they shouldn't be allowed to make a decision of this magnitude until they are old enough to fully understand and live with the repercussions of their decision.

The difference with mandatory treatment is that medicine is a requirement, the lines are less ambiguous. Without vaccination, without health treatments, disease rates and suffering go up for no good reason.

But in this case, we're talking about a more grey area, of identity. Who are you? What identifies you? It's a concept we all struggle with at some point or another. Neither the parents or child alone really have the judgement to know what's right, but I sincerely believe that transgendered people do have an internal struggle with who they are and the mismatch with their body. It's a complicated issue, it's a grey area, which means it's a birds nest that needs to be untangled.

As for the puberty thing, it's time sensitive. Yeah, you could wait it out and wait for the age of majority, but puberty is the time of change, of working through your sexuality. It's a vital timeline, both physically and developmentally. A lot of grief could be avoided if hormone therapy occurs before that.

I don't know. I empathize because I had a friend who really struggled with this. She went through a lot to figure out who she was, and it was painful to see her have to walk over glass for something that most people can usually work through.

Originally Posted by Capulet

Or the confusion occurs when the impulses one feels differ greatly from the preconceptions foisted upon us by society. One wouldn't have to mutilate our bodies if we were comfortable expressing ourselves using the ones we currently have.

There are thousands of homosexual couples that successfully find ways to fulfill themselves and their partners without having to change anything physically. And while I understand there will still be many who will not feel comfortable until they have altered themselves to the maximum limit science has to offer, I wonder how many wouldn't feel the need if society was more accepting of their lifestyles as they are currently built.

More on topic, body alteration of this sort shouldn't be a decision anyone makes on behalf, and children shouldn't make it because they're... well... children. It can wait until they're adults or medically emancipated.

I think you've answered part of your own question here. There are homosexual couples who are able to live happily without having to change anything physically, despite the fact that they have impulses which differ from the preconceptions foisted upon them by society. If gender confusion is caused by societal preconceptions and expectations, then all gay people would consider whether they should be the opposite sex. For most people that I know, and me included, that wasn't the case. I became confused about my sexuality around the usual age of 12 to 16, but I never once questioned if I was the wrong gender. By that time, my gender as a male was already set in stone and I was completely comfortable and assured of it.

Similarly, if a girl had an interest in football/soccer or was happier wearing boyish clothes, would that be enough to make her feel that she might actually be a boy. The fact is that many girls do grow up feeling different but manage to live their lives without feeling that they have to change their sex.

A lot of people seem to be saying that children are too young to make a decision about their own gender. But most transgendered people do start to become confused about their gender before they reach puberty. There is definitely a pattern. I think that we underestimate a child's ability to know themselves and to know what is right for them.

Saying that, I wouldn't claim that gender confusion is biological or genetic in every single case. I'm sure that there are extreme cases where children have absolutely no support network that they can turn to and discuss their problems with. Or perhaps the people they speak to are so intolerant that they confuse the child even more.

I agree with most everything both of you have said. I think the only place I diverge is where the decision to change can be made. Even though it would facilitate the transition to start before puberty I don't think anyone is in a position at that point to make the decision.

Everyone's stated their position on it quite eloquently, and it's just whether we believe the individual child should have that sort of decision-making power over their body at that time.

But I have to ask you: if you're willing to let a child of 10 make the decision to surgically and hormonally reconstruct their body, what other decision could you deny them? You would need to believe a child is ready to take full control of their life, and thus be allowed to push their parents out, if they wanted.

• Should a child of 10 be allowed to quit school to pursue a career as a full-time paperboy because the money's good?
• Should a child of 10 be allowed to consent to sexual contact with an adult of 40?
• Should they be allowed to marry said adult and move out of their parents' place to live with them?

I don't mean this to muddy the waters, but these are all points debated in previous threads where the answer has consistenly been "no", but the overall long-term affects on a child seem much less invasive and permanent than the one we're green lighting for them here.

I'm particularly interested in hearing from the "pro-pre-puberty changes" crowd on this tangent.

Originally Posted by Capulet

Everyone's stated their position on it quite eloquently, and it's just whether we believe the individual child should have that sort of decision-making power over their body at that time.

But I have to ask you: if you're willing to let a child of 10 make the decision to surgically and hormonally reconstruct their body, what other decision could you deny them? You would need to believe a child is ready to take full control of their life, and thus be allowed to push their parents out, if they wanted.

• Should a child of 10 be allowed to quit school to pursue a career as a full-time paperboy because the money's good?
• Should a child of 10 be allowed to consent to sexual contact with an adult of 40?
• Should they be allowed to marry said adult and move out of their parents' place to live with them?

I don't mean this to muddy the waters, but these are all points debated in previous threads where the answer has consistenly been "no", but the overall long-term affects on a child seem much less invasive and permanent than the one we're green lighting for them here.

I'm particularly interested in hearing from the "pro-pre-puberty changes" crowd on this tangent.

Eh, I'm not really part of the crowd. I'm more "this crap is complicated, so let's consider more angles".

I don't think a 10 year old has the cognitive functions to make life changing decisions. But, we have to consider that a) decisions of a child's sex are being made, by adults, that don't always have the best reasons and b) it's not a black and white issue.

I don't accept that it's so black and white that we either dismiss children that want to change sexes and that we wait it out until they're adults, or we allow all children to have sex-changes.
There are a lot of questions that need to be answered: a child may not feel that they are the right sex. Do we take the child's word on it?
Are there indicators a child can be assessed in determining if a child is the right sex? (Are testimony and case studies valid in determining this?)
How is the decision made if a child may or may not change? (who makes it, is it by third party, etc)

Then it becomes a matter of what variables do they check for to assess if the child would benefit from a sex change.

Complicated, yay.

Originally Posted by Ditch

Is it really? I'm curious to know who thinks this would even have come up at the ages stated had not the parents had issues themselves?

Too Soon? An 11-year-old California boy and a 7-year-old Georgia girl have recently decided -- with parental support -- to come out as the other gender. The boy, Tommy, wants more time to think about it, said his lesbian parents, and has begun taking hormone blockers to make his transition easier should he follow through with plans (first disclosed at age 3) to become "Tammy." The McIntosh County, Ga., girl has been living as a boy for a year, said father Tommy Theollyn, a transgendered man who is actually the one who gave birth. Theollyn petitioned the school board in September (unsuccessfully) to allow the child to use the boys' bathroom. Theollyn said the girl first noticed she was a boy at age 18 months. [CNN, 9-27-2011] [Atlanta Journal-Constitution, 9-14-2011]

This has worried me a bit. I just don't understand why gender is even an issue at such a young age. 'Theollyn said the girl first noticed she was a boy at 18 months' Surely, at that age a child wouldn't even be 100% sure what the differences between boys and girls are! Seesh, my four year old nephew said he was going to be a girl when he grows up. To me, that doesn't say 'Oh well, he must really want to be a girl - quick pop him some hormones' It shows me that he is unable to understand what being a girl/boy is.

Originally Posted by guy_faukes

Eh, I'm not really part of the crowd. I'm more "this crap is complicated, so let's consider more angles".

I don't think a 10 year old has the cognitive functions to make life changing decisions. But, we have to consider that a) decisions of a child's sex are being made, by adults, that don't always have the best reasons and b) it's not a black and white issue.

Well, it really can be a black and white issue if we want it to be. We can simply say "decisions of this magnitude belong to the individual, and we don't consider them sufficiently capable of making them until they are an adult. Thus, until they are emancipated or reach the age of majority, children cannot receive elective sex changes." I say elective because I'm sure there are medical emergencies that will call for one, but I don't think that's really in the scope of what we're discussing.

Originally Posted by guy_faukes

I don't accept that it's so black and white that we either dismiss children that want to change sexes and that we wait it out until they're adults, or we allow all children to have sex-changes.

So which children are allowed to have them? Any over the age of 5 with advanced conjugation skills? The ones that are best coached by their parents on what to say properly? Rights are great in that you either have them, or you don't. Children are a special case, in that we hold some rights in trust for them until they're of age, but the rights we hold in trust we do for all children, and not just say, the black ones, or the male ones.

Rights are rights until they're taken back or applied selectively, then they become privileges.

Originally Posted by Capulet

Rights are great in that you either have them, or you don't. Children are a special case, in that we hold some rights in trust for them until they're of age, but the rights we hold in trust we do for all children, and not just say, the black ones, or the male ones.

I've never heard this phrase before, and I wonder why not. Not only in cases like this, but in so many areas, we need to give children the freedom to preserve their childhood; until they're of an age where they can freely decide what they wish to do for themselves.
This is a case where parents have clearly violated their child's preservation of rights.

Destroying the preservation of future rights is a form of child abuse. A child who’s brainwashed into getting this done can’t say that they don’t want it at age 20, and is even more insidious than paedophilia.

Children have the right to be children, and part of that is their preservation of rights until they’re adults.

I do not agree with this. I have nothing against homosexuality, but I do think that we are born as we are. If you are gay, then you are gay, but that doesn't make you someone on the other gender, just someone who swings the other way. While any adult has the right to chop, or put on a penis just as much as anyone who wants bigger breasts or that pointy nose fixed, this is something that requires a conscious, responsible and informed decision, something a child cannot do.

Children have the right to have a fully functioning, perfectly operational, and visually presentable body by the time they become adults. It is the duty of the parents to make sure that their bodies and minds are in prime conditions for them to make use of them when their life starts. Not only is this a risk, it is also something the child could regret later on.

It is obvious by looking at the parents backgrounds that the child's decisions are not entirely unbiased, and it should not be allowed. There is no reason why a child who hasn't even developed should feel dissatisfaction with their bodies, and if they do the correct treatment would be therapy.

Originally Posted by elite

... this is something that requires a conscious, responsible and informed decision, something a child cannot do.

Children have the right to have a fully functioning, perfectly operational, and visually presentable body by the time they become adults. It is the duty of the parents to make sure that their bodies and minds are in prime conditions for them to make use of them when their life starts.

In other words, incapable of making responsible, informed decisions, children should listen to their parents and do their homework until such time as the are adults and become the sole stewards of their primed minds.

Originally Posted by Capulet

In other words, incapable of making responsible, informed decisions, children should listen to their parents and do their homework until such time as the are adults and become the sole stewards of their primed minds.

...

You got me there.

Originally Posted by elite

...

You got me there.

Sorry, couldn't resist dive-bombing from the other thread. Your homework argument pretty much centred around students at the university level so I don't know if I even "got you".

What's wrong with a pointy nose?

What's wrong with a pointy nose?

Some people don't even like noses.

Originally Posted by elite

Some people don't even like noses.

Even the smileys don't have noses. It's a broad conspiracy. Soon Italy will mandate all smileys wanting to work professionally will need to have noses.

As you can see in my avatar, I'm covered!

This is child abuse, but it happens all the time. In the late 80's, I wanted to study computer science, but my dad said I am to be a doctor. I was pushed to volunteer in hospitals, made to work in clinics, and given medical magazines to read, after which I was to write an essay about key articles. I later left home and was disowned.

Why do parents do this???