Thread: Europe's Democracy Brushed Under the Carpet?

With the resignation of Italian PM Berlusconi, after making sure austerity measures demanded by the EU were passed, and his replacement to be an unelected technocrat, is Italy actually much of a democracy anymore? How can it be if the elected PM can be suddenly replaced by an unelected technocrat without consulting the public? I should of course mention that I think Berlusconi is a complete twit, but should he not of been removed and an alternative PM offered in an election?

Greece is in a similar situation. It effectively has unelected foreigners in all of its governmental departments, with its head replaced by a technocrat after Papandreou suggested he might give the public a referendum on the austerity measures. How dare he even think of asking the voting public anything, eh? It was likely a decision that may have been brought on by the fact that Greece's politicians have to sleep with an eye open and with their windows shuttered in fear of their own voters. He was quickly removed and the prospects of the Greeks being allowed any say whatsoever is pretty much nil. Obviously this is because Greeks likely would've voted no to austerity, and doomed the world's economy. A price democracy is not worth.

Go back a bit, and you also have Portugal and Ireland, both eurozone countries that were unsuited to the euro, had to be bailed out, and subsequently had austerity measures imposed from Brussels with elections purposely postponed in both cases until said measures could be passed. The people could not be trusted to do what was required for their economies, and they couldn't be trusted to do what the rest of the eurozone and world wanted.

Lastly, consider what is being urged again and again from all the economists and politicians of the world; financial integration of the eurozone, and with it, political integration. The euro is largely to blame for most of the above situations in the first place, and most now claim to have seen it as flawed from the start, that there was no economic sense to it and only political vision, but now it's there to have countries dropping out in a disorganised fashion would be absolutely chaotic for the world economy. Therefore the public of eurozone countries, who never got a say on losing their currencies in the first place, will have to accept the fact that their individual nation states and democracies, along with their views, are in the way of saving the euro and world economy. I'll note here that the PM of my country, David Cameron, is among those urging eurozone integration. A man who used to call himself eurosceptic and supposedly champions giving the public a say on things.

Perhaps democracy is simply not worth it in times such as these then?

No democracy always has all its leaders elected, and elections will happen in due course. I am not sure about Italy, I think the Greek elections are due next year. Consider the situation where the head of state dies, in America he would be succeeded by the vice president, the one that failed to get elected. Equally one might say that the UK is not a democracy, we have an hereditary head of state in the Queen.
The parliaments of both those countries remain as elected representatives and the power of the president is circumscribed by them, I am not sure how, or by whom, the new presidents were chosen, but I bet those elected representatives had a hand in it or he would not be able to function. Within the British system for example the prime minister is not chosen by popular vote, theoretically he is the choice of the Queen, but she had best choose some one who has the backing of a majority in parliament or he simply would not be able to operate.

Remember also that in the ancient democracies a dictator was quite regularly elected in times of emergency, to take charge and make sure there was a single, unified approach to the problem. I was that nasty little Austrian who gave dictatorship a bad name by refusing to stand down in Germany when the emergency was over, but theoretically dictatorship can be part of a democracy..

No country allied to the EU is a full democracy any more.

Olly, it is very misleading to suggest the queen has anypowers at all. She is just a figurehead and does as she is told.
She hardly has an opinion that could be reported without the scrutiny of others.

As for Greece, I was there eight years ago and I couldn't get over the number of houses that were not completed. When I enquired I was told EU loans had been dished out for building private houses - and the repayments commenced only when the roof was on! There they were thousands of them built to two or three floors ending in steel reinforcement bars sticking into the sky!

In answer to the OP, it is worrying that ther democratic process is being brushed aside. Here in Ireland the publec voted twice against adopting EU doctrine and they were told to go back and vote again and 'get it right this time'.

I hate to open this can of worms. but it's not just Europe.

Here in the U.S., the executive and judicial branches have all but nullified the legislature. Those branches are supposed to enforce and interpret the law. Since the 1930's, they've been usurping the power of the legislature and making law. And it's gotten worse recently. Not only is this procedurally incorrect, but the laws that they make are often in direct conflict with the will of the people.

This murder of democracy now occurs on every level in the U.S. (local, state and fed). Where I'm from, about ten years ago, the people passed a referendum to put money in a 'rainy day fund'. When the recession hit... Surprise! It's all gone. The Governor had raided the fund to pay off her political allies with the money we needed. And no surprise, the judiciary (filled with appointees from her party) just shrugged.

The forces of democratic representation are losing, and have been for quite a while. Oligarchies are now the default government of the 21st Century.

a prophetic quote....he actually has many.....


"Democracy... while it lasts is more bloody than either aristocracy or monarchy. Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There is never a democracy that did not commit suicide."

--John Adams

Confirmation that the technocrat has got the job:
BBC News - Italy crisis: Mario Monti appointed new PM-designate

It's also interesting to note that both Greece's and Italy's technocrats used to be in the upper ranks of the workings of the EU.

Originally Posted by Olly Buckle

No democracy always has all its leaders elected, and elections will happen in due course. I am not sure about Italy, I think the Greek elections are due next year. Consider the situation where the head of state dies, in America he would be succeeded by the vice president, the one that failed to get elected.

Being replaced by the vice president is wrong, but nevertheless better than being replaced by a technocrat, for at least the vice president is an elected representitive. I was peeved when Gordon Brown was allowed to take the reigns of the UK with no election- I thought it was a scandal- but at least he was a member of the Labour party that was voted to power and he himself was voted by his constituents to be an MP. When heads of states get replaced by technocrats, who have absolutely no claim to represent the people, and who are completely unaccountable to the people, it is a complete failure of democracy in all shapes and forms. How is it that all of the elected politicians of Greece and Italy are overridden in favour of technocrats?

Originally Posted by Bloggsworth

No country allied to the EU is a full democracy any more.

I agree with you. If you look at where all of the EU's legislation comes from, it is the commission, (unelected), rather than the parliament, (sort of elected). The EU parliament really has no more power than a revision chamber such as the UK's House of Lords. It could also be said that, even if the EU parliament actually was above the commission, that the EU's population size means a single vote is even less important in EU elections than they already are at a nation-state election. And the differing political parties across Europe means the parliament is a confusing mess of logos, colours, and political ideologies. The more that is decided from Brussels, the less democratic Europe becomes.

Originally Posted by qwertyman

In answer to the OP, it is worrying that ther democratic process is being brushed aside. Here in Ireland the publec voted twice against adopting EU doctrine and they were told to go back and vote again and 'get it right this time'.

I keep saying 'undemocratic', but that is actually just a bad habbit, what I actually mean is anti- democratic. Listening to the electorate has come to be known as populism, as if there's something wrong with representing voters. A politician's duty these days appears to campaign for what the party leadership wants, rather than what the voters want, and in the case of the referendums, to keep forcing them until the right results are achieved.

Originally Posted by Winston

I hate to open this can of worms. but it's not just Europe.

Here in the U.S., the executive and judicial branches have all but nullified the legislature. Those branches are supposed to enforce and interpret the law. Since the 1930's, they've been usurping the power of the legislature and making law. And it's gotten worse recently. Not only is this procedurally incorrect, but the laws that they make are often in direct conflict with the will of the people.

This murder of democracy now occurs on every level in the U.S. (local, state and fed). Where I'm from, about ten years ago, the people passed a referendum to put money in a 'rainy day fund'. When the recession hit... Surprise! It's all gone. The Governor had raided the fund to pay off her political allies with the money we needed. And no surprise, the judiciary (filled with appointees from her party) just shrugged.

The forces of democratic representation are losing, and have been for quite a while. Oligarchies are now the default government of the 21st Century.

It could also be said that you have no successful middle-ground party, and image seems to trump policy. It's almost willful destruction by the American public of their own power. Similar things can be said of many European countries. I'll find it amusing if eventually the roles reverse, and the West starts getting democracy lectures from China. For now we've stopped lecturing them anyway, because they pay the bills and keep the lights on.

Originally Posted by qwertyman

Here in Ireland the publec (sic) voted twice against adopting EU doctrine and they were told to go back and vote again and 'get it right this time'.

To be sure, to be sure, to be sure.

Role of an MEP

• The Members of the European Parliament are elected every five years under the proportional representation system. The election is held by direct universal suffrage. Voting systems vary, depending on the country. MEPs exercise their mandate independently and cannot be bound by instructions or receive a binding mandate.

#

The above is from the official EU web-site, with my colouring.
I have also read somewhere else (sorry, cannot confirm source) that an MEP should vote only in the interest of the EU and not solely for the country that elected him/her.

So ze Goiman MEPs zey are woting independently and not in ze interest of ze EU?

The EU is the tower of Babel.

I think the European Union can be a good thing. No less than the Union (United) of American States. Texas always has some people that want to go back to becoming the Republic of Texas. The one state in the Union I might be in favor of giving back to Mexico.

The Union of the American States (at one time each state had its own currency) was not necessarily something that always transitioned and functioned with ease. Perhaps it's largest and most well known struggle came during that epic we call the Civil War of the United States of America. I don't see why the European Union should be a development or transition without some rocky roads at times.

I also sympathize with Hugo Chavez desire for a Bolivarian unity of Latin American nations.

*Devil's Advocate*
Despite the right to vote, the UK has never been a democracy. The state has always been a puppet worked by the powers that be. Until we get a political party that is interested in standing for one term, fixing what needs fixing and getting out before the vested interests get a hold of enough dirt, or work out the way to bribe the Government, we shall be at the whim of the rich.