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About LinkBacksThanks for the contribution. I think we're all a bit more enlightened now.Originally Posted by Blood
Thanks for the contribution. I think we're all a bit more enlightened now.
"I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue!"
Barry AUH20, 1964
We are? Can we bump up the enlightened count to 11% then? I think it would be great if we had an 89/11 split. 90/10 is getting too trite.
"Laugh and the world laughs with you, snore and you sleep alone."
- Anthony Burgess (1917-1994)
Trite. But a True Fact nonetheless!
And thanks, Ash. No one has brought up the survival benefits to being the smartest person in the cave.
Makes me wonder. Were there the equivalent of "coffee shop intellectual beatnik chicks" 10,000 years ago? And did they hook up with those deep, introspective guys who painted the caves? Well, that's another debate...
"I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue!"
Barry AUH20, 1964
I don't know about percentages, but my enlightenment dial on the KharmaTronic 3000 goes to 11!
"I shall always feel respect for every one who has written a book, let it be what it may, for I had no idea of the trouble which trying to write common English could cost one—And alas there yet remains the worst part of all, correcting the press.' Charles Darwin
Whatever...
"There are two distinct classes of what are called thoughts: those that we produce in ourselves by reflection and the act of thinking and those that bolt into the mind of their own accord."
Thomas Paine
The goal is to enlighten other's of your view, and to be enlightened of others views, if you agree or not. It is to develop your understanding of things and to assist others to do the same. It's also a very difficult art to master.
Who overcomes by Force, hath overcome but half his foe.--John Milton's Paradise Lost 1:648-649
If you would like to see my current work here is the link: http://www.writingforums.com/fantasy...ject-noir.html
What I'm not getting from anyone is: "Do the ends justify the means?"
If all you want to do is enlighten people, why not just write a book? Enlighten yourself? Read one.
From what I've seen, it's not about the end result. It's about the process. How much human wreckage can be heaped after a rhetorical assault? If the debater feels better about himself after a verbal "smack-down", everything else is secondary. Including the truth.
The best debaters are amoral narcissists that are flexible to the point of not having a core. The purpose of debate is to feed the hollow yearnings these people have. To give a sense of actually mattering, even if it is only for a moment.
For the moment is all they have.
"I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue!"
Barry AUH20, 1964
Books are not very interactive, and only involve the viewpoint of one person. You've missed the entire "enlighten each other" that was suggested.
But yes, debate does have a process, or rules if you will. Both sides need to be represented, and sometimes one side of a debate may not be very popular to defend. This is where your "amoral" people may come in, as they would have an easier time standing in front of people arguing a side generally frowned upon by society. Narcissism has little to contribute to the art of debate, although a narcissist might enjoy it more if he is winning. But then, they enjoy anything more when they're winning so that isn't really specific to debate either. I'm sure they equally hate it when they're losing, so that might drive them away from debate.
You have a pretty bleak view of debate. More important to me, do you really believe it? If so, and you are currently debating, how do you view yourself?
If the purpose of debate is to feed the hollow yearnings of amoral narcissists
and
Winston participates in debates regularly...
"Laugh and the world laughs with you, snore and you sleep alone."
- Anthony Burgess (1917-1994)
By selectively omitting the key words "the best" debaters, you overshot the target.
I see myself as only marginally amoral and narcissistic, therefore, I am only a mediocre debater. I leave the truly gifted to do what only they can do best.
"I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue!"
Barry AUH20, 1964
I omitted nothing. You said the purpose of debate was to feed the hollow yearnings amoral narcissists have. I remarked you debate quite frequently. I'm also very much jerking your chain.lol
But in all seriousness, I don't think amoral narcissists they make the best debaters. I agree that amoral debaters have one advantage in that they may feel more comfortable taking either side of an argument, but that doesn't mean they'll have any real skill at defending whichever side they take. Nor do I think a narcissist enjoys losing, and would probably have issues conceding points and maneuvering around those losses.
"Laugh and the world laughs with you, snore and you sleep alone."
- Anthony Burgess (1917-1994)
Formal debate is a mechanism for stating disparate views without resorting to firearms or weapons of massed destruction to get your point across. It allows each side to state their case without interruption or fear of personal attack. Neither side is in a position to change their mind on anything, as that form of debate precludes discussion.
The formalised platform debate is a sport for future politicians and lawyers. It is strategic and stylised.
What is engaged in on internet forums is not debate as much as it is logical persuasion and rhetorical arguing.
"I shall always feel respect for every one who has written a book, let it be what it may, for I had no idea of the trouble which trying to write common English could cost one—And alas there yet remains the worst part of all, correcting the press.' Charles Darwin
A debate should be an intellectual exchange of ideas and beliefs by two or more individuals in the goal of harnessing other viewpoints, knowledge, information and wisdom. A debate is a good question.
A debate nowdays though is a way of measuring our intellectual penis lengths.
I debate because it's a form of intellectual sparring.
Sparring is fun, a challenge to yourself and to your opponent. It's exciting to see what is brought to the argument, each addition enriches the discussion itself, like adding new ingredients into a pot of boiling stew.
Some, though, view debate as a form of fighting, which is monumentally different from sparring. In sparring, the goal is shared, an exercise where both participants engage to mutually benefit the training and enjoyment of the other. True sparring elevates the discussion into the more profound and thought-provoking.
In fighting, the goal is singular, to win over your opponent at all costs. Contrary to elevation, fighting lowers the quality of the debate into sarcasm, mockery, and insults.
I see fight-debates almost everywhere now. Spar-debates are a dying breed.
If you only read the books that everyone else is reading, you can only think what everyone else is thinking.
- Haruki Murakami
I debate to exchange ideas, views and opinions. I also do it to have my mind changed if new, compelling evidence or arguments are presented to me and to have the chance to present coherent arguments with the chance of changing someone else's mind.
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