Thread: Paganism. Morality, Stereotypes and Sun worship.

So, as I was replying to another thread in the debate section(the witty and cunning of you will know which by the time you are done reading the first paragraph) I found a biblical evangelist laying form sermons and preaching of evil, sin, good and all that is to be under the crushing weight of the monolithic tome of God.

Read to the end please, this is not an anti christianity or anti religion thread.

Now don't get me wrong, we are all entitled to our own beliefs, and christianity to me is a beautiful religion that albeit having a few misteps along the way is about love and acceptance, and I even know an orthodox christian priest who is willing to take confession for me despite my religious views, his exact words being "God told us not to judge, and to accept all, so I will accept your worries and help you both as a man, and as a son of Good our father". I'm saying this because the usual defence card is "Oh you hate christians etc." but that is not the case, I grew up in a very religious nation, with very fundamental values. A lot of my good friends are christian, just like a lot are muslim, and a lot are pagan like me. I have no problems with the religion.

However, that being said, I do have a problem with a selection of the believers of some religions.

What irked me is that I was basically classified as evil and bound for hellfire due to not believing in God.

Now I consider myself a pretty decent person. I do volunteer work, I'm always a listening ear or comforting shoulder for anyone I know with trouble. I avoid causing trouble and I am forgiving. I am jealous of some things but I do my best to harbor no hate for that which I envy. You get the picture, I'm all around a pretty nice guy althought I do have my foul ups.

The problem is, why does my belief make me evil, despite the fact that I am following pretty much 8/10 of the tenet of said religion, as well as doing my best to not practise my sins. To me it seems like the equivelant of "well you have a lot of work experience and many reccomendations, but you do not own the manual so we cannot hire you".

That isn't the main question thought, and it's not adressed solely to christians or believers.

Here is what got me thinking and made me make this thread. I am Pagan. I believe in several weird things that would send a lot of you running, make some of you scoff and laugh, and others call me pothead.

For me the Absolute powers in this world are three. Death is our lord and Master, he is what govern over all and is the only absolute, we must all face death, and none may escape him. He does not judge, he harbors no prejudice. To me, death is not evil, rather Death is pristine good.

The other great power is mother nature, allmother, the one who gives us all we need with which to sustain our lives. When I say mother nature, I mean this entire planet, not just fauna.

Thirdly, we are all one of the higher forces of this existence. We are Titans that tread upon this world unrestrained by anything. We can do what we want, where we want, how we want it, when we want it. Yes we have limitations, but we can overcome and exceed them. Humans may not be divine, but we are one of the greatest forces of our own existence and being.

So heres my real question(yes, this wasn't a bible bashing sermon), do my beliefs(albeit they have been explained extremely vague) make me evil? Questionable. If I was the most qualified candidate applying for a job at your company, would my beliefs make you not hire me, not hang out with me?

What do my beliefs evoke in you, what stereotypes come forth, what does it make you think and wander of me as a pagan, not a person.

Allow me to close this by saying I do not intend to assault anyone verbally or physically, I just realized I've never gotten an outside view on what my belief system is like, and am honestly curious to hear what others think and have to say.

Although I don't label myself under any religion, I do lean more toward Paganism. It's the only one that doesn't seem to be war-mongering today, as well as Buddhism and a few others I can't conjure up at this minute, and threatens you with hellfire or divine wrath if you don't follow its trend. Plus, I love the spiritual side to Paganism and its belief in nature and harmony. These views have not been a problem for anyone, save for the odd debate on an afterlife and karma.

My mother is a Pagan. She got some abuse when she came out as one when I was a child; the odd roll of the eye or something snide, but she never restrained or held back. She was relentless in her belief. Plus it kept the Jehova Witnesses away.

Are people like you and I evil? Some people of society will think so, or at least think we're demons set into whispering to them broken promises, or pour honey in their ears to make them stray from the 'so-called' path. But we're not. It's complete nonsense. We are each individual beings who seek an enlightenment that nary a person on our planet will ever experience. And people find this through countless religions too, Pagan or otherwise. There's nothing wrong with that, and if you're told otherwise than it's simply a hypocritical response.

So-called Pagans had morality. You can see the Scandinavian gods married, further back you saw the early Christians condemned for immorality. You take away the Christian contamination declaration of 'satanic evil' (which can't exist in a Pagan religion because Satan is a Christian reality - note to the anti-Christian satanist idiots out there), and you find a place full of morality. Things like the wild naked sex dances with all types of debauchery were Christian propaganda.

You should note that Paganism isn't the same as Atheism.

Your post looks to me like little more than a guilt ridden spleen rant -- Confused title. Rambling logic. Full of angst.

Take your topics one at a time and work them through rationally; then make your case.

Originally Posted by Rustgold

You should note that Paganism isn't the same as Atheism.

Not sure if that was aimed at me but I did say that I held a belief. I just didn't put myself in a category; just leant more toward Paganism than any other. I'm no Atheist; he/she that doesn't believe in anything. I believe in something. I'm just unsure where to put myself in that respect.

Originally Posted by Mystery

So heres my real question(yes, this wasn't a bible bashing sermon), do my beliefs(albeit they have been explained extremely vague) make me evil? Questionable. If I was the most qualified candidate applying for a job at your company, would my beliefs make you not hire me, not hang out with me?

I don't care for the pagans in Liberia's civil war that killed little children to drink their blood as some mystical way of gaining protection in battle, or their cross dressing cannibals.

But if one is a pagan of some virtue or education then I don't have a problem. I'm named after St. Justin Martyr who was an educated pagan to Christianity. Pagans exist - no biggie. I would hire a pagan or socialize with one but I would never marry one.

What do my beliefs evoke in you, what stereotypes come forth, what does it make you think and wander of me as a pagan, not a person.

I'm told Hinduism (which in reality is not a single unified religious system) believes in a one God with that one God coming in the form of many different avatars. If that's correct, and assuming I'm understanding that Hindu position correctly, then I suppose Hinduism would not be paganism.

I bring that up because the "5 Great Religions" (Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity, and Islam) are generally regarded as having the most well worked theologies or metaphiscal philosophies in an academic sense, out of the world religions.

To stimulate my mind I would rather study at an Islam or Buddhist university rather than go backwards into paganism.

Allow me to close this by saying I do not intend to assault anyone verbally or physically, I just realized I've never gotten an outside view on what my belief system is like, and am honestly curious to hear what others think and have to say.

As I said in the other thread... Catholicism teaches (per Thomas Aquinas) that all God's creation, that includes humans, are inherently good. It is Original Sin inherited from the "First Parents" (hard to reconcile that with the theory of evolution mind you) that weakens humns to sin. But it is that inherit good in us that the Catholic Church says inclines all humn beings towards virtue. We are pulled towards virtue and sin.

What's more important to me than beliefs is what is real and fact. If for say the Muslims are correct then I as one with Catholic sympathies and prayers to the Virgin Mary and Jesus will be in trouble when I die.

It may be that pagans will go to hell or to purgatory (many if not most Christians will pass through purgatory). If that is the case then that is their lot.

People often only think of themselves. Many parents have no problem leading their children to hell or into the arms of Satan. With that in mind... marriage is not simply "a thing for me." I must be cognizant of what kind of mother I want for my children. I want a young woman as a wife that is Catholic enough to the extent she does not blasphem God or his saints like the Virgin Mary or speak ill of the Catholic Church. For myself and my wife are the first earthly guides ("gods") of our children.

My beliefs probably fit under some pagan/deist umbrella. Anyone who would condemn me, because of them, is a fool. I'd give their opinion the same credence as I would a fart in a windstorm.

Originally Posted by eraser

My beliefs probably fit under some pagan/deist umbrella. Anyone who would condemn me, because of them, is a fool. I'd give their opinion the same credence as I would a fart in a windstorm.

I wonder what you are seeking with this thread then? If you are asking what everyone thinks of your beliefs, but will disregard and anyone a fool that condemns them, you are only leaving yourself open to people saying exactly what you want to hear. Is this behaviour in line with your religious learnings? If so, what makes you any different than the Christians you claim cast you off so blithely?

If we are to discuss your religious beliefs from a Christian view, then it's safe to say you are going to Hell. That doesn't mean you're evil in how you treat others, or even by the measure of your heart, but simply put you have not accepted Jesus Christ as your saviour and thus will burn in Hell for eternity. That simple.

But, as a paganist, why that should bother you eludes me. You don't believe in the Christian god, so why would you care about what His word holds for you?

Considering who and when you share your religious views with is entirely under your control, you shouldn't worry too much about what others think of them. Your actions will dictate how people will view you, and if your religious views lead you to treat others with kindness and respect I can't see anyone considering you an evil person.

Originally Posted by Capulet

I wonder what you are seeking with this thread then? If you are asking what everyone thinks of your beliefs, but will disregard and anyone a fool that condemns them, you are only leaving yourself open to people saying exactly what you want to hear. Is this behaviour in line with your religious learnings? If so, what makes you any different than the Christians you claim cast you off so blithely?

If we are to discuss your religious beliefs from a Christian view, then it's safe to say you are going to Hell. That doesn't mean you're evil in how you treat others, or even by the measure of your heart, but simply put you have not accepted Jesus Christ as your saviour and thus will burn in Hell for eternity. That simple.

But, as a paganist, why that should bother you eludes me. You don't believe in the Christian god, so why would you care about what His word holds for you?

Considering who and when you share your religious views with is entirely under your control, you shouldn't worry too much about what others think of them. Your actions will dictate how people will view you, and if your religious views lead you to treat others with kindness and respect I can't see anyone considering you an evil person.

Perhaps you have reading comprehension issues. I quite clearly stated that what others may think about my beliefs is of no concern to me.

But thanks for the chuckle. :)

Originally Posted by eraser

Perhaps you have reading comprehension issues. I quite clearly stated that what others may think about my beliefs is of no concern to me.

But thanks for the chuckle.

Your opinion of my opinion does not preclude me from sharing it with you. In my experience, those that say "I don't care what anyone thinks!!!! But let me tell you about myself..." are usually quite interested in what others have to think, but have already accepted that they're going to receive a negative example.

But I'm glad that your religious view is so airtight that you are able to not only ignore any sort of commentary on them, but instantly classify all opposition as fools. Sounds like a worldly, tolerant, and peace-loving view you have going there. I hope you ask all other religions to treat you in the same manner.

Enjoy!

I'm an old trout. I don't rise to such ill-cast bait.

;)

Originally Posted by eraser

I'm an old trout. I don't rise to such ill-cast bait.

Originally Posted by eraser

My beliefs probably fit under some pagan/deist umbrella. Anyone who would condemn me, because of them, is a fool. I'd give their opinion the same credence as I would a fart in a windstorm.

No, but attitudes may be a different matter. Also if you wish to call yourself something, do kindly understand that it's more than a little name. Incoherent mumblings & rumblings are more likely to be subjected to condemnation. Finally, kindly don't attempt to use statements of forced acceptance against me, I'm guaranteed not to react well to it.

Just a few friendly tips for you

Is that supposed to be a spanking? It would be more impressive if it actually related to what I said.

Or if it made sense.

But as long as you feel better.... :)

Back to the topic (and not nipping at each other, please)...

Hey Mystery,

So heres my real question(yes, this wasn't a bible bashing sermon), do my beliefs(albeit they have been explained extremely vague) make me evil?

No more than mine make me evil... so nope.

If I was the most qualified candidate applying for a job at your company, would my beliefs make you not hire me, not hang out with me?

Again, nope.

What do my beliefs evoke in you, what stereotypes come forth, what does it make you think and wander of me as a pagan, not a person.

Your beliefs evoke nothing in me, one way or the other, to be honest. Plus I don't think and wonder about you as a pagan. A decent person is a decent person. A jerk is a jerk. That's about it.