Thread: Are people inherently good?

Originally Posted by Brock

Your point is very well made, Lamperoux. But what if these societies bankrupted themselves by investing way too much on a huge trash incinerator? Sorry Lamperoux, I couldn't help myself.

You're a sly one. Society always finds a way to reinvent itself and be reborn anew. Take for example, the roman empire. After it's fall i'm sure life was not walk in the park. But they built themselves back up into some of the most powerful nations in the world. Germany is an even better example, they rose from the ashes of hitler's destruction and became a very well respected nation.

As for the society you have questioned me about, once the lady with the large forehead is out of the way, we'll find a way out.

The way I understand this life is that in never ending cycles and circles the evolution of all life inexorably moves forwards and upwards – and we with it – onto ever higher and more beautiful levels of experience. I believe that all the qualities that are in God – to me this means the Universal life force, the Great Father/Mother of all life – are also in us and that each one of us contains the very best as well as the worst. Our potential is unlimited and anything anyone else can do, we can do too – if that’s what we wish. The spiritual gifts we acquire our ours to keep in all Eternity – no force between Heaven and Earth will or can take them from us. The chief ones are the Divine qualities loving wisely, the way God loves us, totally and unconditionally. This is closely followed by tolerance, honesty, integrity, truthfulness, loyalty, kindness and goodness of heart. We are in this life to develop the kind of gentleness that is by no means a sign of weakness but of strength of character. The way I see it, these things can only be gained by living through all manner of experiences in the course of a vast number of lifetimes on the Earth plane.

In contrast to this, the material gifts the Universe so generously hands out to all of us are of a temporary nature and have to be handed back at the end of each earthly sojourn. Every child of Earth eventually has to learn to let go of them gracefully and thankfully and returning them in as good condition as possible, when the time for doing so has come. The most important material gift is a new physical body, which the Universe supplies free of charge, each time our education demands another re-entry into physicality. Our daily food and drink, clothes to wear, fuel to keep warm and everything else we find in our environment is a gift from the Creator to us, Its human children of the Earth. This applies especially to the natural world and our whole planet – they are given to us in trust and for safekeeping only.

Originally Posted by Brock

What other male animal would have put women and children first as the Titanic sank?

I know it's only a film, but I think that James Cameron's Titanic depicted this scene realistically. When an officer called passengers to the lifeboats and said 'women and children first', the captain had a devastated and begrudging look on his face when he said something like 'oh yes, that's right, women and children first!' I imagine that many of the men on board Titanic were thinking that very same thing.

I agree with Capulet that environment and culture are important in how we act and whether we do good or bad things. If an incident like the sinking of Titanic happened today, I'm sure it would be more like an 'everyone for themselves' scenario. So I don't think that people are inherently good. But I don't think we're inherently bad either. I would say that we are inherently predisposed to make mistakes, which includes doing bad things, and are inherently wired to think of our own lives and safety before other people's.

Originally Posted by Brock
Hilarious, but eating to survive and raping to satisfy sexual urges are more than a whisper in difference. This I will not agree to disagree on.

I dunno. Maslow himself says a man needs to feed and needs to breed. They're on the same tier of basic physiological needs.

I'm sorry, but I had to come back to this one. I left this thread alone, but this has been in the back of my mind bugging me a bit.

Yes, I agree; man needs to feed and needs to breed. But Capulet, you are saying that if a man is hungry, he will do whatever it takes to feed, and if a man's sexual needs are not met, he will also do whatever it takes to breed, even rape (the roofie).

Yes, a man is hard-wired to breed, but will the average man rape in order to satisfy his urges if they are not met? As well as you have debated this topic, I believe the correlation that you draw between feeding and breeding is wrong, as is Maslow. Feeding and breeding are not on the "same tier of basic physiological needs." We all know of men who "aren't getting any." Are they raping? We are also aware of men who choose abstinence. Food is essential. Without it, there would be no life - no sex. Man will go to much greater lengths in order to not starve than what he will in order to spread his seed. Do I agree that sex is the primary motivation behind most everything that most men do? Yes. But unlike food, can the average man live without it and not rape to achieve it as painful as it may be? Yes.

Originally Posted by Brock

We are also aware of men who choose abstinence.

Yes. Irish Catholic priests. And we know how that story ends!

Yes. Irish Catholic priests. And we know how that story ends!

So Irish Catholic priests are the only men who choose to abstain from sex, and all Irish Catholic priests molest little boys? Wow, I learned something today.

Furthermore, the actions of a small percentage of Irish Catholic priests are indicative of all men who are lacking in sex. Ok, good enough for me. At least generalization isn't coming into play in this debate again.

Yes, we are inherently good, but we are also inherently evil. It's not like those are mutually exclusive - "inherently" is not in fact a synonym for "fundamentally" or "primarily."

Heck, humans are the only creatures on the planet capable of good or evil, because we're basically the only animal who can comprehend abstract concepts to begin with.

One of the elders of the city said: ‘Speak to us of good and evil.’
And he – the prophet – replied:
‘Of the good in you I can speak, but not of the evil.
For what is evil but the good within you
That is tortured by its own hunger and thirst
For the experience of learning that will help you
In due course to return to your true nature?
That is why when the good in you is hungry
It seeks food even in dark caves,
And when it thirsts it will drink of dead waters, too.

You are good when you are at one with your Highest Self,
Yet, when you are not one with it, you are not evil.
You are but a divided house and that is not necessarily a den of thieves;
It is merely that the two parts of you,
Your Highest Self and its earthly counterpart, are still
Travelling in opposite directions; thus, you are a divided house.
This can be likened to a ship without rudder that wanders aimlessly
Among perilous isles, without necessarily sinking to the bottom.
When you have learnt enough about evil,
With the help of God and the Angels,
The two parts of you will be joined together again,
And brought into harmony, so that they can work for you,
Instead of against.

If some of the souls in your world still seem to be guided
Away from their Highest Self and ever deeper into physicality,
Fear not – the turning point does come for you and all that is in your world.
Your evolution is a circle that first moves you away from God,
That which is all good.
As you descend into matter, you move downwards.
Having reached a certain evolutionary stage,
You begin to move upwards and are on your way
Into re-discovering that you are part of God
And that God is part of you, and that because of this
The core of your being is good, through and through,
As well all-loving and all-knowing, like your God Self
With whom you are becoming one again,
Though this time consciously.

For as long as your soul lessons require that you move downwards,
You are not evil.
Even while the outer self is still learning to differentiate
Between good and evil, your innermost being remains good and of God,
You are good when you are spiritually awake in thought, word and deed.
Yet, you are not evil when you are not
And your tongue still staggers without purpose;
Stumbling speech also serves a purpose;
It helps to strengthen a weak tongue.
You are good when you strive to give of yourself.
Yet, you are not evil whilst you are still seeking gain for yourself.
When you are doing so, you are still learning the lesson
Of being a root that clings to Mother Earth and sucks at her breast.
Like the root and the fruit of the same tree, your soul’s needs
Vary according to the evolutionary phase you have reached.
That is why a fruit cannot say to a root: ‘Be like me,
Ripe and full and ever giving of my abundance.
Yet, the fruit’s giving is as good a need as the receiving of the root.

You are good when you walk towards your goal firmly and with bold steps.
Yet, you are not evil whilst you still go there limping.
Even the limping ones in this life do not go backwards,
For all life is evolution and moves ever forwards.
But let those who are strong and swift,
See that they do not limp like the lame,
Believing this to be out of kindness to them.

You are good in countless ways,
And you are not evil when you are not good,
You are neither loitering nor sluggard,
But merely learning to tell the difference between good and evil.
Have compassion too for those who already move as swiftly as stags,
And think they can teach their swiftness to those
Who so far can only move like turtles.
Wise ones know that in God’s great plan, the turtle has its place,
As well as the stag.

Your goodness lies in your longing for being at one
With your Highest Self, and that longing is in all of you.
In some, it already is like a torrent that is rushing to the sea,
With all its might, carrying with it the secrets of the hillsides
And the songs of the forests.
The longing of others is still like a shallow stream
That loses itself in angles and bends, until it too finally reaches its destination.

Each does come to the end of their journey, in their own sweet time.
That is why there is no need that those whose longing already is strong
Say to those in whom it is still weak: ‘Why are you slow and halting?’
And that is why someone who already is truly good
Would never dream of asking someone who is naked:
‘Where is your garment?’
Or someone who is homeless: ‘What has befallen your home?’

From ‘The Prophet’ by Kahlil Gibran 1883-1931
Lebanese/American poet
Edited by Aquarius

Originally Posted by Brock

So Irish Catholic priests are the only men who choose to abstain from sex, and all Irish Catholic priests molest little boys? Wow, I learned something today.

Furthermore, the actions of a small percentage of Irish Catholic priests are indicative of all men who are lacking in sex. Ok, good enough for me. At least generalization isn't coming into play in this debate again.

No. Some of them sexually harass the nuns!

Okay, it was a generalisation. But it was just one example of how abstinence is an unnatural state. Another example is the book of Mormon, which states that followers should handcuff themselves to the bedposts when they are going to bed so that they can't be tempted by a bit of self pleasure. Does that sound natural to anyone?

If we wan't to discuss things that are inherent, then sexual pleasure is right up there with eating, sleeping and thinking.

Originally Posted by Anders Ämting

Yes, we are inherently good, but we are also inherently evil. It's not like those are mutually exclusive - "inherently" is not in fact a synonym for "fundamentally" or "primarily."

Heck, humans are the only creatures on the planet capable of good or evil, because we're basically the only animal who can comprehend abstract concepts to begin with.

Animals can make choices too. They can't make choices like we can: we have technology and extremely complex society.

Originally Posted by Brock

There is a lot of evil in this world. Just flip on the news and the majority of what you will see will depress you. Suicide bombers and mothers killing their babies are now all-too-common stories that have lost a lot of their shock value. A new scam seems to be born every day that will take an elderly person for all they've got, corporations are now raking in record profits while their employees' standard of living continues to suffer, priests molest children, husbands and wives kill each other for insurance money.... I could go on and on. The news seems to be 90 percent negative -- full of atrocious acts commmited by greedy evil people.


My wife and I have been too trusting of people a number of times in the past and paid the price for it. We've been lied to, ripped off, not paid back... you name it. There are so many people that come across as sincere but have underlying agendas.

But admist all this evil, I still believe that people as a whole are inherently good. I believe there are more people out there that would be willing to give someone the shirt off their back, rather than take advantage of them.

Do you believe that good people outnumber the bad, or vice versa?

I'm a Christian. The bible tells us that humanity itself cannot overcome the sin that we came to bear through the fall of Adam. However, Christ died for all sin, and now there is only one unforgivable sin - not believing on him. Those who believe on him are clothed in his righteousness. So you could say that humanity is evil, but God made it so that we can be good, but that's not our doing, it's God. .For it is by grace that we are saved, through faith, and this is not of ourselves, it is a gift of God. Not by works, so that no-one can boast.' Ephesians 2:8 there, one of my favourite verses.