Thread: Feminism. Why I think it's going too far.

I've been reading around this site, A Voice for Men | Masculine Counter-Theory in the Age of Misandry , for a bit. While I think their views are a little bit traditional for my tastes, it has enlightened me on what's been bugging me for a while. The threads in the lounge kind of made me a little aware of it at first, but all the pieces fell into place when I read that site.

There is something wrong with the direction feminism, no, society as a whole, is taking.

When I was younger, 4 years ago to be precise, I idolized women. I thought they were like goddesses, graceful, beautiful, and fascinating. Those views changed drastically as I got into actual relationships. My dream back then was to marry and honorably dedicate myself to a woman and my children, like my father did before me. What I found out however, is that women were not as godly, graceful, beautiful and fascinating as I thought they were.

Put simply, they are human beings, that's all there is to them. They were nor superior or inferior, just different. My model of ideal man-woman relationship was crushed because I believed in equality, and going through the end with the original plan meant either dehumanizing myself as an inferior being, or dehumanize the girl as a possession with high maintenance fees. I have agree with feminism in the sense that we men look down on women.

But let's talk about what concerns me the most: the laws. Originally, women had a lot of privileges in order to compensate the inherent lack of freedom; things kind of balanced things out if you think about it. But even if it did balance out, women were still not free, and they, like any human being, wanted freedom, and so feminism came to be. Because we men are prideful creatures, and because we still look down on women, we just gave away the rights. What happened to all the double standards of the previous system?

It made sense that men had to provide funds to the woman were they to divorce; after all, she had no economical independence of her own, how was she supposed to survive without it? Now that couldn't be further from the truth, yet the man still has to give away monthly fees for the rest of his life after a divorce. Let's take things one step further: why are women not held accountable for so many things? Why are women the only ones consenting for sex? Why is female rape and violence a tragedy, and male a comedy? Why does a woman not have to be a lady, but a man has to be a gentleman? Why does the motive matters so much with females, but so little with males? Why males default to guilty if a woman is involved?

If we are to seek equality amongst genders, the old-age double-standards also have to come to an end. In the current law system, if you are a married man, your wife has every right to ruin you financially and take you away from your kids with little repercussion. If you're a college students, the girls have every right to call rape on you and ruin your future. Worst thing is, there is little you can do to defend yourself were it to happen.

Women are not evil, they are people just like we are. But like people, many of them will also abuse the system to their advantage, and this is being done on a regular basis. The biggest loophole in our criminal system is that if you're a woman, you automatically have impunity over anything but theft and murder.

And the effects of this biased law and order is bringing repercussions to the new generations. Women are being raised in an environment where they are not only "empowered", but they don't have to face the consequences of their actions because there is always a guy around to take the blame for her. This is not equality.

Why are feminist not advocating true equality, with the removal of all double standards? Because what they want is not equality, but to turn the board around on us, to make men into the discriminated gender.

Some times, when I wonder about all of this, I think of what would my life be were I born a woman. What kind of position would I take? Would I be the same person? I was raised to believe I had to "man-up" and face the consequences of my actions, and that's what shaped my personality. Without that, I wonder what I might have become, and fear I wouldn't really like myself as a woman after all. If I can't even empathize with a girl at their most elemental level, I fear that I might remain single for a long while before I meet "an exception to the rule". That's why I, personally, think we need change, change to a world with true equality, where women are held accountable for their actions, where men can sew and become househusbands, where men as a whole are not insulted on a daily basis, where a woman can approach a man without social repercussions, and where man-woman relationships become one of true give-and-take.

I also had a starry-eyed view of women until I started going out with them. I especially remember reading a lot of complaints and opinions in the media about men's poor performance in bed. I was then shocked to discover that most women I slept with are awful. I thought 'What the hell have they been complaining about?' (maybe I've just been unlucky.)

The things you're talking about gave me a deja-vu feeling because I thought the same things. I'm sure that some women really do want equality but a lot don't. They want equal pay and opportunity, etc. But most would rather the husband worked which is handy because most men would rather work. People will always complain about negative discrimination yet be happy with positive discrimination.

Years ago I noticed women getting very short sentences compared to men for very similar crimes (I think reading about it helped me notice). I don't remember feminists calling on the penal system to be just as tough with women as they are with men. We all want to keep the positives and dump the negatives.

Originally Posted by spider8

I also had a starry-eyed view of women until I started going out with them. I especially remember reading a lot of complaints and opinions in the media about men's poor performance in bed. I was then shocked to discover that most women I slept with are awful. I thought 'What the hell have they been complaining about?' (maybe I've just been unlucky.)

Not to put too fine a point on it, I'm sure you have.

I'm sure that some women really do want equality but a lot don't. They want equal pay and opportunity, etc. But most would rather the husband worked which is handy because most men would rather work.

What airy-fairy land do you live in? Men are the laziest buggers on Earth. Joe B excepted.

Originally Posted by The Backward OX

Not to put too fine a point on it, I'm sure you have.

Well, that makes two here, plus another four friends of mine, multiply that by the amount of occurrences (not exactly low). Maybe we were not unlucky, but simply not lucky?

I think the problem at hand is that society has hardwired in our brains that our wonderful pretty women are worth sacrificing ourselves for, and on theirs that we cannot expect the same from them.

And looking closely, even my father is not exactly lucky either. My mother is a wonderful person, but it's pretty obvious who has it rougher when my mother believed for 23 years that any amount of stress is something my father had to handle for her. Things got even between them when we moved to Brazil, when my father simply couldn't just "take care of everything" anymore. My mother almost broke down in the process, but now it feels like they are really sharing the load more evenly now, and thus their bonds strengthened.

What airy-fairy land do you live in? Men are the laziest buggers on Earth. Joe B excepted.

The laziest buggers on earth that do heavy lifting, deliver goods, construct buildings, or engineer products 40 hours a week and more? I think any employed human being deserves a little better than that, no matter what gender they are.

Men and Women have it just as good and bad as each other. Whatever happened to equality?

A few years ago there was a ruckus at the Wimbledon tennis championships. The women were annoyed that the prize for the men's champion was £1,000,000, while the women's was only £750,000. They harped on about equality this and equality that, but no mention was ever made of them sacrificing their best-of-three-set matches and playing best-of-five like the men. No, they wanted the same prize money for playing less tennis.

If you want to talk about equality, everything must be equal. What does that mean in an ideal equal world? First, it means that you pay your own way. No more always getting the man to pay the bill, open the doors, or pull out your chair. That is, unless you want to reciprocate. You see, I'm old-fashioned in that I like to be a gentleman and hold open a door for a lady, or give up my seat on a train/bus. However, get called a 'chauvinist' one too many times and you'll start to realise that you can't win. Some women want to be treated like that, others feel it's condescending.

Of course women and men have it equally as bad as each other. Here's the ironic part, though. A woman can talk to her girlfriends when she's feeling low, and can even shed tears with them about a problem. A 'proper' man takes it on the chin, soldiers on, and pretends there's nothing wrong. I've never had a friend come to me and tell me about a problem. Not once in my life. Nor have I gone to one of my friends with a problem. There's a stigma attached to it. You have to be stiff-upper-lipped and get on with it. So there's one more facet equality has failed to conquer.

I'm all for equality, but only when it isn't thinly disguised as misandry.

I only have 2 thirty minute time slots of computer time I can sing up for per day (so long as the slots are not filled). I've already burned 30 minutes responding to emails. So, I'll try to type quick even the I type slow with one finger.

Feminism or it's opposite masculinism are neither one and the same with egalitarianism. But what's termed "identity politics" can help minority groups collectively rise through political lobbying and paid for propaganda.

The history of labor and marriage is not one of rich men vs poor women. For most human history most men toiled in manual labor and married women from their same socio-economic class. Women from rich families married rich men.

A girl can be a baseball player, a truck driver, a politician, a medical doctor and so on. She can be mentally retarded, over weight, or make poor choices also. Same goes for boys.


My problem with modern day feminism is it's blatant contrasdictions (hypocrisy). The sexual revolution championed by feminist wanted women objectified. Men supposedly were afraid of femle sexuality. Now feminism opposes the same thing it championed and blames men for it: (e.g., the mini skirt).


And by the way... soccer is largely regarded as a girl sport in the United States. Real boys play American football. So, the European or Latin American might do well to understand there are cultural and even ethnic components to various gender issues or favored behaviors among the two sexes.


Being a substance addict that is unemployed with no car I have to question why it is attractive looking (from 0 to 10 I would say 8 to 9's) women make advances on me now but never did so when I was a gainfully employed Marine or civilian commerical painter with no drug addiction problem. I wanted to be married. In fact I would not have mind becoming a father to the child of some single parent mother. If this was a case of 1 or 10 women that might be one thing. When it become hundreds o tens of thousands of women I think it's fair to say some cultural issues are at play. And I resent advancements being made on me in my condition. what if I empregnated one of these women? Ah... but the dim lights of men can't catch on. I must be "exgagerating" a social change. All women are Virgin Mary's so the matra goes.




Case example:

A young female relative of mine that pays less than $6.00 a month for rent on a nice two bedroom apartment. A gift from the state because she is unemployed and has a child. Giving birth now a second time to a man in his 20's that can't hold a job and physically punches her (drawing blood) and has threatened to kill her and her child - and himself. She'll stay with him.

Feminism is against the state leaving these young women to live with their parents. Reckon a young woman might be less tolerant of men that can't carry their own then? I reckon so.

Essentially... it's said to be all men's fault. For the mantra goes, "All po woman wants is a good man." What kind of man when asked? "Just a man."

Apparently I was not "Just a man" before I became an unemployed substance addict.

Originally Posted by Writ-with-Hand

And by the way... soccer is largely regarded as a girl sport in the United States. Real boys play American football. So, the European or Latin American might do well to understand there are cultural and even ethnic components to various gender issues or favored behaviors among the two sexes.

Off Topic:

This, I find completely absurd. The 'manly' game in America is the same one where grown men strap on forty pounds of protective gear to play rugby? Sorry, I like American football as much as the next guy, to the point where I watch the Superbowl every year, but that's laughable. I will wager you fifty quid that there are more injuries per season in football than in American football.

Some of your 'footballers' have pot bellies and double chins. I guarantee you that you won't see a single 'soccer' player out of shape, the Brazilian Ronaldo notwithstanding. Most of them have six and eight packs.

Also off topic:

The pads and helmet don't do as much as you'd think. I played in middle school -- some of the kids on the opposing teams had beards and weighed at least 250 pounds, if not more. Some of them had chins and potbellies, but they also had plenty of muscle and strength. They only have to run a few feet at time -- so yeah, they aren't in great aerobic shape. But you get hit by two or three guys like that at once and you know it. Basically, the way the game is played, you'd be dead without the pads -- and that's no exaggeration. At the end of his career a pro quarterback's body is a disaster. Their knees are generally shot. Most have arthritis and they can hardly get out of bed in the morning. Football is a very dangerous game. Lots of concussions, despite the helmets. Don't let all the pads fool you.

As for the OP -- get out in the "real world," get married, raise kids, establish a career in a place where you work with women. You might see that neither men or women are really too concerned about "feminism" these days. Too busy working, raising families etc. Women have choices these days -- and I don't see a lot of evidence that they're held back or that they get much deference either. You don't see many at the C-Level or upper management, but that's usually by their own choice. They tend to bow out altogether or stop actively trying to move up the ladder because they make the choice to have kids and their priorities change. There are still quaint traditions people hold on to -- the door opening etc. The man paying for dates -- but anyone who's been in a long-term relationship knows that's mainly the deal only at the initial stages of courtship. So mostly, those are non-issues and I don't hear a lot people complaining about any of it. It's true that men often get the short end of the stick after divorce -- but that's slowly changing. For the most part, this was a conversation for twenty of thirty years ago.

Originally Posted by JosephB

As for the OP -- get out in the "real world," get married, raise kids, establish a career in a place where you work with women.

It might be a bit too soon for me to get married, however

You might see that neither men or women are really too concerned about "feminism" these days.

You'd be surprised. There is a small raging bunch called the MRM (Male Rights Movement), but even more than that, the "date-rape" laws that have been going around lately have caused a big ruckus in universities. There is the FRA (Father's Rights Association), combating the injustice that is divorce in the west.

Too busy working, raising families etc. Women have choices these days -- and I don't see a lot of evidence that they're held back or that they get much deference either. You don't see many at the C-Level or upper management, but that's usually by their own choice. They tend to bow out altogether or stop actively trying to move up the ladder because they make the choice to have kids and their priorities change.

Yeah, that's true. The problem I'm discussing, however, is how badly biased the laws are right now, to the point that it's ridiculously tough to win in court against a woman, even if she went as far as committing murder.

There are cases of married women getting away with murdering their husbands because "they were insensitive violent bastard." If I killed my wife and say "she was a noisy violent ****," (is there a way to insult a woman without censorship, anyway?) would I get away with it? But of course not. That's the problem.

If a horny teenage girl tells a mentally retarded (IQ 50) eighteen year old that she's 18, has sex with him, and then gets pregnant, what does she does? Call rape and make him pay her monthly for the rest of his already miserable life. Did the court question her accusations? not one bit. That's the problem

A 20 year old woman gets pregnant by having sex with his boyfriend, and wants to hide her virginity? Call rape on his boss at her part-time job and refuse to get DNA tests because it would "ruin her virginity." The man had an alibi, an ALIBI, and the court simply dismissed it and sentenced a clearly innocent man to prison, with not a single bit of proof or what-so-ever. That's the problem.

Your husband wants to divorce you? Great! Chop of his penis, because he "deserves it" and become a celebrity, to go as far as being cheered on TV! What if the husband had done the equivalent? Would anyone cheer on him like they did to her? Of course not, burn in hell you human abomination.

These are the issues I'm talking about. Issues that have real, tangible repercussions, that go against the human rights of men like you and me.

Some of that goes on here – maybe it’s more common where you live. Here, the laws themselves don’t favor women. Judges and juries might sometimes – and maybe law enforcement in some cases.

Otherwise, the examples you’re giving are extreme. The he said/she said factor in rape cases has and will always be problematic. There have been a few cases where women have used the “battered wife syndrome” and the circumstances have been a little iffy. Others have tried it and were convicted anyway. Not a lot of penis chopping going on.

My thoughts on "organized/professional" feminism, such as the business now run by those like Gloria Steinem:

Never trust a money making venture whose core goal is to put themselves out of a livelihood. They are more interested in extending the fight rather than coming to an actual solution.

As for the issue with finding a good woman these days, I have avoided the entire issue by finding a Filippina who was raised very Roman Catholic, and has the old-school asian view that women are women, men are men, and each of those roles comes with certain expectations.

She treats me like a man/her king, I treat her like a woman/my queen, and we both know where we stand with each other. She runs the house, I steer our overall course based on our mutually-decided goals, and we couldn't be happier.

As more and more asian women come to Canada, I can't help but think there's going to be an ever increasing number of lonely caucasian women signing up on e-harmony as they approach 30.

Originally Posted by Capulet

As for the issue with finding a good woman these days, I have avoided the entire issue by finding a Filippina who was raised very Roman Catholic, and has the old-school asian view that women are women, men are men, and each of those roles comes with certain expectations.

Well, at our house, we decide what the roles are based on who does a better job of whatever it is -- not according someone else's idea of what a man or woman is expected or supposed to do.

Otherwise, it just sounds like a "good woman" to you is someone who's subservient. I don't really have a problem with having an equal partner -- but whatever works for you.