Thread: Riot in London

Am I being fair to judge others?

You are smart enough to know apples from oranges. One bad person can influence a whole lot of others, I see this in everyday life, it is not restricted to any particular age or gender. All I can think of doing is offering alternatives and hoping a large enough percentage of people are smart enough to leave dead end thinking behind and move on into a better place.

I'm not quite sure how you intend for your comments to be taken in the context of the riot discussion Robin.

If these children are destined to be criminals, what are you proposing we do with them?

And nobody ever has to steal, so your choice between mugging and bank robbing is contrived. I would rather see no theft than try to assign moral ranking to crimes that need not happen.

Originally Posted by bazz cargo

You are smart enough to know apples from oranges. One bad person can influence a whole lot of others, I see this in everyday life, it is not restricted to any particular age or gender. All I can think of doing is offering alternatives and hoping a large enough percentage of people are smart enough to leave dead end thinking behind and move on into a better place.

Don't want to sidetrack this thread, but rioting is a behavior problem. I will try to explain as best as I can, and I do hope I make some sense of it.

I never said all children are destined to be criminals; I said a handful of them are natural bullies, and bullies must be confronted before they will spread their reign of fear like cancer, and when they do, it will be too late.

Saying that one wants to see no theft at all is like saying that a human being will give birth to a robot--far-fetched. Even if the eight billion of us are given our small huts with our food stamps, beer, and cigerettes (or weed), the stealing will continue by the controlling forces who arranged our niffty situations.

Plain and simple--when caught breaking a law (and not for stealing bubble gum) the ringleaders must be sent to prison before they contaminate the minds of borderline individuals.

I like the term bazz used "dead end thinking." Governments think "dead end" thoughts too. They build missiles at a cost of one million dollars that do nothing but destroy, yet they complain they don't have the million to build a youth center that will help build integrity within youths.

Unfortunately, stealing won't go away. It is a necessity, like eating. It one pretends that nobody ever has to steal, he will increase his chances of becoming a victim of a con artist. Never forget, that a man with a brief case will always steal a hell of a lot more than a man with a gun. Looters are opportunists, no different from dishonest politicians.

You misquote me. I never said nobody will steal, I said nobody ever has to steal. And to imply there is any difference between stealing a million dollars and stealing bubble gum is the exact sort of thinking that has brought us to where we are today.

Stealing is wrong.

There you go, that's the hard and fast rule. There's no, "Oh it was just a pack of gum" or, "oh, the insurance company will cover it, no real harm was done."

Stealing is wrong.

We have different punishments for the severity of the theft, but never should it be shrugged off with some sort of justification. If a child of 12 steals a pack of gum from a store and is caught, be it by the store owner, their parents, or their peers, some form of punishment is due. Prison is obviously not the answer, but I'm sure some liberal grounding, public apologizing, and free floor sweeping on the weekend for the store owner would be in order.

Missiles are important, and so are youth centers. One protects you from without, and one gives you something to protect within. A nation's security exists on both sides of the border. The federal government builds the missiles. To think they are also responsible for building youth centers is misplaced. A community center should be built by the community. If that means the municipal government, great. If they are contributing to funds generated by private enterprise and community members, even better. When everyone invests financially, everyone invests emotionally in the success of the enterprise.

It's time for communities to stop abdicating their responsibility to take care of themselves. They are the final voices on the health of their members, be it physical or emotional. That's why you see immigrant neighborhoods thriving, or at least sustaining, when things get bad. They have a social structure in place to help each other when personal success or government support dries up.

For the purposes of this thread, I'd say the first responsibility of modern communities is rediscovering the lost art of "smacking sense into a child."

I'd say the first responsibility of modern communities is rediscovering the lost art of "smacking sense into a child."

Seconded.

A community center should be built by the community.

It is not easy to find the cash in an impoverished community to build community centres. Then when they are built how do you get the responsible nice citizens to accept the disruptive not nice gang members who would most likely burn it down.

Stealing is wrong.

Theft is natural behaviour. Who doesn't like free stuff. Not stealing is a learned behaviour, how do we teach 'no' to people?

What we are dealing with is volume, the more we can swing community members away from the dark side the better things get. The better things get the easier it is to avoid the dark side. One voice will be ignored or trampled on, a thousand voices with some cash behind them can make a difference.

Originally Posted by bazz cargo

IWhat we are dealing with is volume, the more we can swing community members away from the dark side the better things get. The better things get the easier it is to avoid the dark side. One voice will be ignored or trampled on, a thousand voices with some cash behind them can make a difference.

Thank you. You say what I have been trying to say all along, but in such a better way.


Community centers should be built by the community.

So many neighborhoods are run by thugs. Decent folks are forced to stay behind locked doors at night. Apparently, you must live quite far from danger zones.

But if authorities had not neglected the children in these dangerous areas, perhaps many of them (who were once borderline individuals but now hardcore thugs) would not have sided with the dirtbags running the neighborhoods.

Maybe, if things hadn't gotten so bad, many of the decent people who fled these lawless areas with their families would have stayed behind to assist in helping those who need it, particularly in teaching the youth how to be decent, productive young men and women.

Originally Posted by Capulet

Missiles are important, ."

They are important because they guard the wealth of the biggest thieves. We have been stealing from one another for thousands of years and have been brainwashed to believe that as long as we take from those who reside in a different town or a foreign county, it is okay to do so.



How can you smack sense into a child when many of them come from problem homes. If I were a child with frustated parents (or a frustrated parent-which is almost the norm nowadays in poor areas) I wouldn't want to be disciplined because most likely it would be abuse.
Sensible guidance counselors in poor neighborhoods can certainly make a difference in the life of child almost destined to become a criminal. A gentle hand is a hundred times better than a strap; a smile , a thousand times better than a frown; a youth center , a million times better than a missile.

Originally Posted by Robinjazz

So many neighborhoods are run by thugs. Decent folks are forced to stay behind locked doors at night. Apparently, you must live quite far from danger zones.

Originally Posted by Robinjazz

A gentle hand is a hundred times better than a strap; a smile , a thousand times better than a frown; a youth center , a million times better than a missile.

Incongruous statements. If neighborhoods are run by thugs, and decent folks are forced to stay behind locked doors, why do we need a youth center? Better to build a juvie facility to house all these hardened criminals until they can be transferred to the pen.

As for kind words vs. the strap: we have decades of data on the direction kind words are taking us, culminating in the problems we face now. I'm all for reverting to corporal punishment again.

Child abuse is a subjective term, which has been diluted to the point of being frivolous. The government needs to step up or step out of the way, and I'd prefer they move aside and let parents get back to their jobs.

You just fail to see the point.

Most of these decaying, crime-ridden areas flourished because of abandonment. Authorities determined these areas were off-limits and gave up on them. So many decent folks (those who could afford to) in these areas also packed their bags and fled to safer places. The areas fate was then sealed: crack houses, pushers, and gangs.

If some money had been pumped into some of these areas before they turned for the worse, then maybe it was quite possible the outcome would have been different.

Have you ever walked down a filthy street with decaying houses? Your feet are moving as fast as they will go because you're in a hurry to get off the street. On the other hand, when you walk down a street that is clean, you move slowly and tend to absorb all the sights.

Every time you see a missile destroying a target, what you are really seeing is another slum remaining a slum. I could think of more positive ways (and so can you) to use the cash that is literally being blown to pieces.

Invest in youth. The human race is probably one hopeless case, but at least we should consider the youth. Give them a happy childhood until they are grown and see for themselves what's really going on. Man is victim of his own fears, and until he can figure out a way to put fear to rest, he will always be engaged in wars.

Isn't it time man makes an effort to start trusting one another and break away from fear? Or must the same crap continue from generation to generation.

Originally Posted by Capulet

As for kind words vs. the strap: we have decades of data on the direction kind words are taking us, culminating in the problems we face now. I'm all for reverting to corporal punishment again.

When it comes to parenting and what goes on in the schools -- what you're talking about is the result of permissiveness -- and a lack of consequences that result from negative behavior. Corporal punishment isn't necessary -- just consistent and thoughtful discipline. All hitting teaches is that it's a good idea to hit people when things aren't going your way.

Originally Posted by Robinjazz

Every time you see a missile destroying a target, what you are really seeing is another slum remaining a slum. I could think of more positive ways (and so can you) to use the cash that is literally being blown to pieces.

Invest in youth. The human race is probably one hopeless case, but at least we should consider the youth. Give them a happy childhood until they are grown and see for themselves what's really going on. Man is victim of his own fears, and until he can figure out a way to put fear to rest, he will always be engaged in wars.

Isn't it time man makes an effort to start trusting one another and break away from fear? Or must the same crap continue from generation to generation.

Several times you have described young adults and older that are "destined to do evil things" because of their natural disposition. Well, some of these lost-causes operate on the world stage, enough to form armies. As bad as things may be in your neighborhood, there are entire countries that are victimized by brutes internally and from abroad.

There is a difference between greater trust and nesting with the weasel. Forewarned is forearmed, but forearmed with a missile is even better.

Luckily we don't have to choose between the two. National Defence and public works come from two different budgets. You could argue one siphons money that could go to the other, but you could make that case for any other budget. Why am I paying for someone else's social security? Old people had their chance to save, it's time to focus on the children.

If we want both, and we do, we have to save for both. Responsibility to save for these two items fall in different hands. You can argue for greater government investment, and I'd just want to see some voting done on it. Democracy is a great tool for determining where we want the cash to go.

The United States of America spent 900 million dollars in Libya (If you believe the government; the figure is probably much higher). That is good money set afire. If I had my way, the money would have been spent in poor communities throughout America.The Saudis with all their billions should have footed the bill for overturning the trecherous regime in Libya.

There are too many children and people suffering in the USA (probably in England too where the riots started) to police the world. Libya is a Muslim problem that should have been handled by Arab nations. The West is crumbling, and it needs to rebuild. If it doesn't, there will be riots in the USA and other western nations too.


What I said is that there is good and evil, that some people are just born losers destined to have a crime-ridden life. And, that borderline individuals--the followers--should be kept from the "bad eggs" through youth centers and other productive activities. The best guidance counselors are usually the people who have witnessed and experienced life in poor neighborhoods.

The United States of America spent 900 million dollars in Libya (If you believe the government; the figure is probably much higher). That is good money set afire. If I had my way, the money would have been spent in poor communities throughout America.The Saudis with all their billions should have footed the bill for overturning the trecherous regime in Libya.

There are too many children and people suffering in the USA (probably in England too where the riots started) to police the world. Libya is a Muslim problem that should have been handled by Arab nations. The West is crumbling, and it needs to rebuild. If it doesn't, there will be riots in the USA and other western nations too.


What I said is that there is good and evil, that some people are just born losers destined to have a crime-ridden life. And, that borderline individuals--the followers--should be kept from the "bad eggs" through youth centers and other productive activities. The best guidance counselors are usually the people who have witnessed and experienced life in poor neighborhoods.

Originally Posted by Capulet

Why am I paying for someone else's social security? Old people had their chance to save, it's time to focus on the children.

.

Why is some poor kid in the military ducking bullets to keep you safe? Life is full of "whys." Makes no sense to bitch about the old folks when you should be thanking the young ones protecting your freedom. And, maybe some of the old ones you mentioned were once soldiers who protected your mother and father's freedoms. They stick out their necks protecting the meek, and they ought to be denied Social Security. Geez.

You can't have it both ways. You're tired of paying for the elderly, well, then, pick up a weapon and defend yourself--and release those poor kids from the military who are doing the dirty work for you.

Originally Posted by Robinjazz

What I said is that there is good and evil, that some people are just born losers destined to have a crime-ridden life. And, that borderline individuals--the followers--should be kept from the "bad eggs" through youth centers and other productive activities. The best guidance counselors are usually the people who have witnessed and experienced life in poor neighborhoods.

Well, I'm glad to see you're ready to write off so many children. How do you propose we dispose of them? It might be easier in states with the death penalty, but we should decide on something that works everywhere.

Originally Posted by Robinjazz

Why is some poor kid in the military ducking bullets to keep you safe? Life is full of "whys." Makes no sense to bitch about the old folks when you should be thanking the young ones protecting your freedom. And, maybe some of the old ones you mentioned were once soldiers who protected your mother and father's freedoms. They stick out their necks protecting the meek, and they ought to be denied Social Security. Geez.

If they were soldiers, they have pensions. As for those young kids ducking bullets, I haven't seen one duck a bullet on home soil in my lifetime, so they're not protecting me, are they? Seems to me they're performing those actions in Libya, Iraq, and Iran that you said we shouldn't be a part of. If they're protecting my freedom over there, that $900 million was money well spent, wasn't it?

Originally Posted by Robinjazz

You can't have it both ways. You're tired of paying for the elderly, well, then, pick up a weapon and defend yourself--and release those poor kids from the military who are doing the dirty work for you.

I don't even know what sort of logical jump you're making here. But let me put it to you this way:

The difference between an American citizen and Libyan is one of labels based on geography. You have no love for Libyans, and feel you owe them nothing. That's fine. They are different in several ways that lends you to hold no personal attachment to them.

As a Californian, you could feel the same way about a Texan. You could feel the same way about someone from L.A. if you're in San Diego, and you can feel the same way about someone that isn't in your immediate circle of family or friends.

How can you put me in the mindset that I shouldn't care about Libyans because we have to take care of our own, then get mad when I say "my own" doesn't include anyone else other than my own family and friends? I don't need medicare, nor do my parents or grandparents. If they need help, my family and I will pull together and take care of them.

So once again, tell me why I shouldn't care less about Libyans, but I should care about other people's spawn that they can't control?