Thread: 14.5 trillion in debt, and....

In the non fiction section, a writer posted that everyone in the US should have universal health care. In a perfect world, yes, but the county is 14.5 trillion in debt-and growing. The writer doesn't point out how we can give everyone free health care, plus cover all of the other obligations in the federal budget.


Does anyone have any ideas ?


Oh, and before you say "Eliminate the military", keep in mind that medicare, medicaid, and social security is well over 50 percent of the budget.

That, and without a military, you get to find out just how many fanatics want to kill Americans.

Thanks for bringing up that point about the military. I think it is key in the debate to realize that the military isn't the whole budget like most people make it sound.

One thing has to be explained clearly: Our debt is a spending problem, not a 'revenue' issue.

I don't have the source on this (sorry) but it's my understanding you could take every dollar from every "rich person" in America...
It would fund our country for One Year. Then what?

Did you guys know that you're still spending billions to provide Japan with military defense. Seriously, if I was Japan, I'd be laughing at you idiots. Same goes with some of the other nations you guys provide defense for. At the same time, it's considered fun to pick on Australian industry; when we sought to provide for ourselves.
America deserves its bankruptcy.

Originally Posted by Foxee

Lol! You must have found that image on the South African Government website.

Originally Posted by Dudester

Oh, and before you say "Eliminate the military", keep in mind that medicare, medicaid, and social security is well over 50 percent of the budget.

"Are well over" is gramatically correct, since you are talking about multiple programs that you've decided to lump together. Moreover, each of those programs are a conglomerate of many different subprograms as well.

Military spending counts for over half a trillion dollars annually, which is on par with any one of those programs. If you are looking at reform on those programs, you should also hold the military up as well. Considering the costs associated with invading other countries, this would fit in well with a growing desire by the American populace to bring their troops home.

Originally Posted by Dudester

That, and without a military, you get to find out just how many fanatics want to kill Americans.

If you perform serious cuts to medicare, medicaid, and social security you can feel comfortable cutting the military as well. Fanatics are reasonable people, and once they see Americans have decided to kill themselves they won't have to spend their resources on it anymore.

Most of the serious costs associated with the medical programs you've listed come from the fact that the services are provided for the most part by private practices. Reducing the costs of medicine and medical services are just as important as an overhaul of the bureaucracy supporting the systems.

Originally Posted by Winston

One thing has to be explained clearly: Our debt is a spending problem, not a 'revenue' issue.

It is not one or the other. It is both. Our taxes our way too low, and need to be raised.

Alan, did you send the extra that you feel you owe in this year? Taxes are supposed to be voluntary and you're always welcome to send in more than the IRS actually takes or bills.

lol foxee, no. If individuals voluntarily chose how much to send in we wouldn't have a running government, because the personal need and greed would always outweigh the civic sense of responsibility. I don't think that makes me a hypocrite. If I were in Congress I would be voting for a tax increase. It is a necessary part of a responsible solution to the problem.

However, I do work under government contracts for 37.5% of my normal hourly rate. Also, though I am expected and entitled to be paid, I do not charge the government for my work as a substitute judge.

And I would gladly pay up to 100% of the horrific amount I pay now for health insurance on a monthly basis for a "medicare for everyone" plan.

Yes, if you were in congress you would vote for raising taxes, because you wouldn't have to pay them. It's far too easy to vote to take people's means of making a living and steal away capital for businesses that employs people (job growth anyone?). It is the credit card mentality that says that the money isn't really real and the government mentality that says that all the money belongs to the central government.

Release the hold on the taxpayers, stop throttling business, and don't rip off the people who pay the revenues in order to 'help' them. We've seen how effective the government is at running things like the DMV and don't want any of that in our healthcare system, thanks.

Set business in general free, LOWER taxes, make them feel safe to spend and grow their businesses. Employment will rise creating more employed taxpayers who can actually contribute into the revenue system and the economy will correct.

Ripping people off makes them cautious and defensive so that they are unwilling to take the necessary risks that will help us as a whole.

Originally Posted by Foxee

Alan, did you send the extra that you feel you owe in this year? Taxes are supposed to be voluntary and you're always welcome to send in more than the IRS actually takes or bills.

Wouldn't it be awesome if the government felt the same way about the services it provided to the people?

"We're just not going to build that road, or provide police services to your neighborhood this year."

Originally Posted by Foxee

Yes, if you were in congress you would vote for raising taxes, because you wouldn't have to pay them. It's far too easy to vote to take people's means of making a living and steal away capital for businesses that employs people (job growth anyone?). It is the credit card mentality that says that the money isn't really real and the government mentality that says that all the money belongs to the central government.

Release the hold on the taxpayers, stop throttling business, and don't rip off the people who pay the revenues in order to 'help' them. We've seen how effective the government is at running things like the DMV and don't want any of that in our healthcare system, thanks.

Set business in general free, LOWER taxes, make them feel safe to spend and grow their businesses. Employment will rise creating more employed taxpayers who can actually contribute into the revenue system and the economy will correct.

Ripping people off makes them cautious and defensive so that they are unwilling to take the necessary risks that will help us as a whole.

I am sensing some personal hostility here, foxee, and I don't understand it. What's going on?

If I were in Congress, I would vote to raise taxes because it is the right thing to do as a matter of policy and good government. I would pay them like everyone else.

The "lower taxes so business can thrive and the government will earn more revenue" is a reference to the economic theory called the Laffer curve. The theory has merit. However, it does not apply to our present situation because we are already on the other side of the Laffer curve. We have lowered taxes way past the point where this effect would continue to stimulate revenue. All responsible economists agree on this. That is why I am so frustrated to see people who should know better, like Congressional Republican leaders, continue to make this argument.

A little historical perspective ought to be infused into the debate as well. You make it sound like taxes are strangling people. Our taxes are lower now than at almost all times in the last 70 years. We are way lower than our more socialist trending fellow western liberal post-industrial democracies. But we are also quite a bit lower than we were in 1978, for example.

The choices are difficult. But I would rather keep social security and medicare - if we can - then pay the societal price of stopping disability and retirement and related medical benefits. If it came to it, though, we certainly can force middle aged children of aging parents to house them and pay for their medical treatment.

Originally Posted by Foxee

Release the hold on the taxpayers, stop throttling business, and don't rip off the people who pay the revenues in order to 'help' them. We've seen how effective the government is at running things like the DMV and don't want any of that in our healthcare system, thanks.

I can't count the number of times I've stood in line to renew my license and said, "man, I wish they ran this place more like my HMO."

Originally Posted by Foxee

Set business in general free, LOWER taxes, make them feel safe to spend and grow their businesses. Employment will rise creating more employed taxpayers who can actually contribute into the revenue system and the economy will correct.

So, if I get you right, the more we reduce the tax burden on taxpayers, the more revenue the government will have? Why don't we reduce all taxes to nothing and concentrate on planning what to spend our infinite revenue on?

Joking aside, taxpayers can't have their cake and eat it too. They want the government to pay for roads, schools, regulatory bodies, disaster relief, military and civil protection services, and any number of other services, but they don't want to have to pay for it.

The government is in charge of these activities because they're either too big or too important to leave in the hands of a private enterprise. They pay for these activities through revenues it receives, and by far the bulk of this revenue comes from taxes. The scope and associated cost of the activities goes up every year, generally outpacing revenues. You need to either argue for reduced government spending or increased taxes, but you can't avoid picking one of the two.

Since everyone seems attached to their social programs and government services, taxes will have to go up in some form. Repatriation of assets hidden offshore would probably be great too.

Originally Posted by Foxee

Ripping people off makes them cautious and defensive so that they are unwilling to take the necessary risks that will help us as a whole.

Yes, I agree. Fortunately we're not talking about ripping people off, but setting tax rates.

As far as US taxation goes, businesses and individuals are far from being "throttled." The United States is one of the least-taxed countries in the world. Here's a comparison from the Tax Policy Center showing US taxation compared to that of other industrialized countries.

Also, the idea that businesses need to be unfettered from their oppressive yoke of taxation is not grounded in reality. Many of the largest American corporations pay no taxes at all.

While I'll agree that spending is a major issue in the US deficit issue, the country must also bite the bullet and raise taxes across the board. Unfortunately, as we've seen before, the current political arena favors cutting taxes for the highest earners and effecting a legally-mandated transfer of wealth from the bottom economic quartiles into the top. And, as we've seen, that policy does not help anyone but the highest earners.

So, to answer the original question: yes, we need universal medical coverage. It is a testament to the greed and influence of business in America that human health is still treated like a luxury commodity. Now, how are we going to get it? Easy. We won't. Not until our political system stops rewarding politicians who make easy, insubstantial choices while pandering to the base emotions of their constituents.

Sometimes I think H. L. Mencken had it right. He said, "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."