Thread: Human euthenasia?

I'm somewhat torn on this subject. It seems that we are often kinder to our pets than we are to our kin. We will put down a beloved pet when death and suffering is inevitable, yet we let our own go on for agonizing months when there is no hope.

Doctors do this every day by disconnecting life support. The heart wrenching case in Florida comes to mind where the father wanted to stop tube feeding his daughter who had been in a coma for years. Why was this more offensive? Because death by starvation is a lot slower than turning off a respirator?

Does a person have the right to die without pain and with dignity if there is no hope? Any thoughts?

We don't treat people the same as the other animals Ditch, we cull them when they overpopulate.

Originally Posted by Ditch

Does a person have the right to die without pain and with dignity if there is no hope? Any thoughts?

Absolutely! It's their life, if they choose to end it then so be it. With euthanasia, I believe the issue is with 'helping' someone else to die and with the debate about whether that person truly wants to die or is being manipulated by relatives who don't want to/can't give up their time to look after them.

I'm in favour of legalising euthanasia, but there must be medical evidence that the person will never recover. There must also be a psychologist's report to say that the person is mentally able to decide that they want to die and that they understand the choice they have made.

There is a distinct difference between animals and humans, personally speaking putting down animals should be illegal. Euthanasia should be legalizied though, people should reserve the right as to when they want to die.

So a person shouldn't have to die a slow and painful death, but it's OK to let an animal die that way? That doesn't make sense to me. Have you ever had a very sick pet, one that's miserable and in pain or can't even eat? Would you just let it starve to death?

Originally Posted by Ditch

I'm somewhat torn on this subject. It seems that we are often kinder to our pets than we are to our kin. We will put down a beloved pet when death and suffering is inevitable, yet we let our own go on for agonizing months when there is no hope.

Doctors do this every day by disconnecting life support. The heart wrenching case in Florida comes to mind where the father wanted to stop tube feeding his daughter who had been in a coma for years. Why was this more offensive? Because death by starvation is a lot slower than turning off a respirator?

Does a person have the right to die without pain and with dignity if there is no hope? Any thoughts?

Deferring to the Catholic Church, it's my understanding, presuming I'm not wrong, that the Church says there is no moral need to keep a person alive if it requires extraordinary means.

However, I notice sometimes the Church likes to play politics and side against pulling the plug on high profile cases.

well, ok I get it, you are right here joeseph since humans basically are able to talk and are thus able to convey what they want.

So a person shouldn't have to die a slow and painful death, but it's OK to let an animal die that way?

Who ever said that? Not I for sure. Our older dog was miserable in the city. She lost a lot of her hair from scratching fleas and I sprayed but they would hatch out anew. My wife wanted to put her down but her quality of life had not come to that yet. Since we moved to the country the problem has cured itself. She is now a fat, happy dog.

I think that most women would be in favor of this as to me it relates to the abortion issue. The main argument for abortion is, "It's my body, nobody has the right to tell me what to do with it."

I'm not talking about families coercing an ill relative or the mentally unstable. I'm talking about a rational person faced with a sure and painful death.

Originally Posted by Ditch

So a person shouldn't have to die a slow and painful death, but it's OK to let an animal die that way?

Who ever said that? Not I for sure.

Custard said it, more or less -- in the comment directly above mine. I was referring to his comment.

My husband has told me repeatedly over the years not to let him suffer a slow death in a hospital. I have told him that I will satisfy myself first that there is no hope.
I put my dog to sleep. It was an awful decision for me, one that took months and months to make. She was seventeen when I finally made the decision. I say 'I', because she was my dog first, and my husband wanted it to be me that had the final say. Sometimes I wonder if I waited too long. She had already tried three times to make her last walk, but nowadays, that most likely would involve an innocent driver hitting her, and I could not live with that either. I have had a year to think about my decision. I don't believe I did her an injustice. It was done outside in the sunshine where she loved to be most, in the spring, in the new grass and all of us were there with her, loving her as she fell asleep.
So, yes, I am for allowing such a decision to be considered.

I personally own a dog and three cats, what made me change my mind was that if I saw my dog in pain for years....... Although there is one thing here that must be discussed, one of our cats has a broken leg (she broke it while jumping from the roof, when she was a kitten) that was over two years ago, the leg has tried to mend itself and has attached itself in the wrong place. Now our cat can walk on three legs only, why havent we given her an operation? Because the vets here are notorious, firstly we have heard of cases where the animal vanished, most dont survive the surgery. We even had one that wanted to do it without anesthetic. Wait I got off course here, the point was that even though she is in pain we can see that she still has the will to live and is quite young so animals should only be put to sleep when they show symptoms of not wanting to stay alive anymore or are in extream pain. The same should apply to humans.

I think this would probably put a lot of stress on families, being urged on one hand to let their loved ones die, but on the other hand hoping against odds that perhaps the person would recover to some level eventually. They'd end up feeling guilty regardless of which decision they make. However, it's probably worse to simply have no choice at all, and be forced to watch someone suffer needlessly.

Originally Posted by Ditch

Does a person have the right to die without pain and with dignity if there is no hope? Any thoughts?

A chronically ill person has the right to chose when they die. Arguably a fundamental right. It is nobody elses decision to make. Like Ditch said, it is an extremely personal decision that many would argue should only be made by the sufferer (I disagree that it is comparable to abortion). It is selfish for that persons relatives and friends to expect a very sick person to continue living for their sake if he decides to check out early. An exception might be in situations where the person is unable to communicate their decision, if they come to one. The only reasonable option in that case seems to be to let the persons most intimate friends and relatives make the decision based on information provided by the doctor in charge of caring for the patient.

It's important for people to have living will or a health care directive, so they can specify what they want if they can't make the decision for themselves. They don't cover every contingency, but they can take a lot if the guesswork out of it. Both my wife and I have one -- and it specifies that we don't want to be kept alive with any extraordinary measures if there is no reasonable expectation of recovery. People tend not to think of these things until they're married or have kids, but there's really no reason not to have one, regardless of your situation.

Here's an article touching on this subject.

Should those that have spent most their life in comfort flee suffering by suicide? Pope John Paul II didn't and he was not only old but never retired. The man was being pushed around in a wheelchair barely able to keep his head erect or speak without slurring.

Of course... you can't base medical ethics around the events of one man. But this begs the question about most of humanity that will live in some physical and mental state of suffering. Most of us will die a painful death also.

Sometimes it's better to die than to live. Me thinks.


Tender is the Night - Features - Milwaukee Magazine

Tender is the Night

Their suicide pact shocked their friends and family. Questions still swirl around an aging couple’s decision to “die with dignity.”

Monday 2/21/2011

Life had indeed been good for the Gutes. They had raised three daughters in a Georgian-style house with three chimneys just a block from Lake Michigan in Whitefish Bay. They vacationed in the Bahamas every Christmas with their girls and renovated a farmhouse in Manitowoc County as a family retreat.

But time had begun to let them down, as old age took its harsh toll. Though still physically and mentally sound, Dan, 79, had battled prostate cancer and was being treated for high blood pressure and macular degeneration. Kitty’s health was far worse. At 78, she was hobbled by an arthritic condition that wracked her joints with pain. And last June, she’d been diagnosed with Alzheimer’s disease. The constant pain and accelerated dementia had robbed her of her spark, her distinctive joie de vivre.

“I’ve lost her,” Dan told one of his daughters. The heartbroken husband and physician could not cure his own wife.

“I came home to find Kitty in the master bath,” he journaled the night before they died. “She had been there for who knows how long. She could not move. Her strength and balance are worse every day. When walking she can’t straighten up. … Kitty will not get better, for she continues a downward course both mentally and physically.”

As husband and wife, doctor and patient, the Gutes had devised a plan to end her inevitable decline.

On the day after their country club dinner, they were found in their car inside their garage. Dan was in the driver’s seat, Kitty next to him, slumped toward her husband. Both had died of asphyxiation after inhaling pure helium.

“It will not be easy,” Dan had written in his journal. The Gutes had told their family and close friends exactly what they planned to do, and why. They had chosen a method recommended by experts. Yet their suicide was still a shock to those who knew them. So many emotional and ethical issues were involved. Was this really the way to die with dignity?