Thread: Ex Forces Personnel Drafted Into Problem Schools.

As a discipline crackdown in deprived areas the government has announced its plans to employ ex-servicemen in schools. They also want to encourage more "cadet forces" in all schools. The attached article provides more information.

The government statement suggests a desire to instill a "sense of service" in the next generation. I can't help wondering if the Nazis had similar ideas with their youth program. Given the way that civil liberties have been (and continue to be) stripped in recent years I find this a disturbing progression.

Soldiers drafted into schools in discipline crackdown - Telegraph

It's difficult to say... On the one hand, yes, schools must have discipline, but on the other, why does it have to be soldiers? Do we have no competant teachers that can create, maintain, and encourage order? Surely difficult schools should be made to have a good look at their staff, rid themselves of/retrain those who can't create discipline, and offer incentives (higher pay?) to attract better teachers.

I see this as a continuation of the Orwellian vision that Margaret Thatcher started enacting and that has been gaining momentum since. I'm sure that woman had to be great lover of literature; she endeavoured to recreate Dickensian society by employing Orwellian methods.

Commonly-seen graffiti:

"Hitler was right"

This has got to be the quote of the day and the final word on the Thatcher regime: '... she endeavoured to recreate Dickensian society by employing Orwellian methods.'

Might be good. England seems to be going down hill. I look at this guy John Galliano and I don't know what the H is going on in England.

Originally Posted by Baron

As a discipline crackdown in deprived areas the government has announced its plans to employ ex-servicemen in schools. They also want to encourage more "cadet forces" in all schools. The attached article provides more information.

The government statement suggests a desire to instill a "sense of service" in the next generation. I can't help wondering if the Nazis had similar ideas with their youth program. Given the way that civil liberties have been (and continue to be) stripped in recent years I find this a disturbing progression.

Soldiers drafted into schools in discipline crackdown - Telegraph

1) Someone in British government must have seen the Tom Bereger movie The Substitute. There's also another movie with Michelle Pfeiffer playing a teacher who came from the military.

2) Nightline did a story on my onetime high school, that there is a need for razor wire, surveillance systems, and guards patrolling the grounds with submachine guns because of a gang/drug problem. Google Belen High School and Nightline.

3) A lot of inner city school teachers are terrified, and rightly so, because parents are either non existant, or the parents of kids try too hasrd to be a friend to their kids instead of being a parent (thank you Dr. Spock). Armed forces personnel would actually be good role models instead of what is regular teachers today-someone from a middle class/upper middle class background with a lot of ideals and no real life experience. They are easily outmatched by kids who are playing the parents against the school, the school against the cops, and the cops against the parents.

What I see in the latter part of the article is that where this has been tried, there has been an improvement in academic performance and less gang activity. If the curriculum isn't changing and these ex-service members are being hired because they're better able to maintain discipline, then I don't see how this affects civil liberties. What about the civil liberties of the students who want to go to school and learn in a safe environment? Are the cadets going to be indoctrinated with some political ideology? We've had Junior Reserve Officers' Training Corps in high schools here for years, and so far, only a very small percentage of students join, and it hasn't yet become anything like the Hitler Youth.

Originally Posted by JosephB

What I see in the latter part of the article is that where this has been tried, there has been an improvement in academic performance and less gang activity. If the curriculum isn't changing and these ex-service members are being hired because they're better able to maintain discipline, then I don't see how this affects civil liberties. What about the civil liberties of the students who want to go to school and learn in a safe environment? Are the cadets going to be indoctrinated with some political ideology? We've had Junior Reserve Officers' Training Corps in high schools here for years, and so far, only a very small percentage of students join, and it hasn't yet become anything like the Hitler Youth.

Don't let silly things like facts get in the way of misplaced alarm.

Sorry, Edge -- I'm not following you. Where's the misplaced alarm? Are you referring to my comments or the OP?

PS. Never mind. It's been a long day.

Originally Posted by Edgewise

Don't let silly things like facts get in the way of misplaced alarm.

Perhaps you could produce some facts to qualify this statement and show that it isn't intended to flame?

If anyone has access to the BBC iPlayer website I recommend the Panorama program "Classroom Warriors" which pinpoints the positive and negative points of the policy with actual examples of footage from schools involved.

Originally Posted by Baron

Perhaps you could produce some facts to qualify this statement and show that it isn't intended to flame?

The facts:

From the article you posted.

The recruitment drive has coincided with an upturn in academic performance at the school, with Government inspectors praising a rise in maths and English scores as well as improved discipline.

Positive academic results in ghetto schools, where students overwhelmingly tend to be unfamiliar with any kind of self-discipline. "Sense of service" could just as easily be interpreted as "a sense of responsibility", probably more accurately than the Orwellian motive you fixated on. And there is no disputing that responsibility is a virtue that all children should learn to embrace, not to mention adults.

From the OP (your OP).

I can't help wondering if the Nazis had similar ideas with their youth program.

Hyperbole.

From my post:

Don't let silly things like facts get in the way of misplaced alarm.

Or is calling you an alarmist the same as flaming?

Posting one line from a report and your opinion of that one line hardly qualifies as providing facts to support your personal comments. You might also benefit from watching the news special that I linked to. The opening sequence shows weapons training in the schools concerned. As I said in my previous post, it shows the positive and the negative sides of the argument.

I've lived long enough to see the erosion of personal freedom in the UK since the 1960s. I've also witnessed military discipline being imposed on a civilian population in Northern Ireland. Winston Churchill was branded a war monger and alarmist for simply studying trends and watching their progression. You put me in good company.

The main purpose of the military is to be trained to kill people. A large proportion of ex-servicemen cannot cope with civilian life once they're discharged from service. These are facts.

Originally Posted by Baron

The main purpose of the military is to be trained to kill people.

In my own limited experience as a Royal Engineer, I found they want you mostly to be disciplined and blindly follow orders. If they order you to jump off a cliff, they want you to do it immediately with a 'Yes, sarge'. But of course, yes - they're more likely to order me to shoot someone if necessary.

Originally Posted by Baron

A large proportion of ex-servicemen cannot cope with civilian life once they're discharged from service. These are facts.

Sadly true.

I'm gonna watch that panorama programme before commenting much further. But rather than be worried at the mo', I imagine they're just thinking it's worth a try rather than a darker motivation.

I've read the initial article and it seems to me that to jump from there to likening it to 'Hitler Youth' is a very hard, high, and fast jump. Instilling discipline and commanding respect is not the same as brainwashing. I'm not a fan of public schools anyway as that system puts education under government control, THAT is just asking for a curriculum canted toward whatever the government wants to think but I don't think that the troops-to-teachers thing is a factor in that.

The thing is, teachers in these schools are often frightened and intimidated by their own students. Many of the kids have little experience with discipline anyway and lack self-control and an eighteen-year-old boy who lacks self-control and respect for authority can be a legitimately dangerous factor.

Of course the military's function is to kill people and break things, it's an unfortunate necessity in a world where people attack each other. However, that doesn't make ex-troops dangerous automatons. I would think that there would be psychological assessments of some kind to make sure that a teaching candidate isn't suffering from PTSS or whatever the term is, in other words, not just anyone would be accepted as a teacher.

It sounds like a very positive thing to me to have a teacher who can instill some respect for their authority if need be, who isn't afraid of their class. How many at-risk kids choose a strong role model like a coach who changed their lives? Too many parents have checked out of the responsibility of raising their own children and leave the teaching of behavior up to the schools, if that is the case then perhaps this is a good a way as any for the schools to take that responsibility.