Thread: "Tiger Moms" - Tough love or abusive parenting?

Amy Chua, author of "The Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother", teaches mothers on how to become 'Tiger moms' - mothers that demand and receive the best from their children.

According to Chua, the Chinese mother believes:

1. Schoolwork always comes first.
2. An A-minus is a bad grade.
3. Your children must be two years ahead of their classmates in math.
4. You must never compliment your children in public.
5. If your child ever disagrees with a teacher or coach, you must always take the side of the teacher or coach.
6. The only activities your children should be permitted to do are those in which they can eventually win a medal.
7. That medal must be gold.

'Tiger mom' book sparks debate on Chinese parenting - CTV News

Tough pill to swallow, huh? Pass the salt please?

I think this yet another case of pathological parent legacy. Chua herself was raised this way but is starting to 'lighten up' and is currently afraid of losing her daughter.

My perspection is that the overcrowding of China and the difficult conditions many parents lived in mixed with the desire for the kids to live better than you did leads to this parenting style. It's a desperate measure for desperate times.

I doubt it's completely applicable to Western society. I agree a good deal of parents need to be stricter with their kids (heard of some kids getting money for good marks... come on... "I'll pay you to make sure you have a brighter future"?!) but socializing is just as important psychologically as financially. How many doors have been opened for you just by 'knowing a guy/gal'?

So, what are your thoughts?

Parenting is not easy. Hold on too tightly, and they'll run away-first chance they get. Leave them to their own devices is a 50/50 prposition, but also, you have a one in two chance in being disappointed. What I've observed that works best, is supply guidance and give lots of support. What is also an absolute must, is have them enrolled in music, one way or another. As for the other stuff ?

1. Schoolwork always comes first.

Most parents are not involved. It would behoove parents to monitor school and homework.

1. An A-minus is a bad grade.

Bad idea. I would come home with four A's and a B. My mother would say, in a scolding tone "You got a B". My brother's report card would have four C's and a B. She would celebrate the B (she wonders why we're estranged).

1. Your children must be two years ahead of their classmates in math.

Math skills are important, but music is more important.

1. You must never compliment your children in public.

Are you kidding ? Bad bad, enormously bad idea.

1. If your child ever disagrees with a teacher or coach, you must always take the side of the teacher or coach.

In 7th grade, I had a geography teacher who sought to make my life miserable. His problem ? I was smarter than him. When my brother took him, he did the same thing. My mom said "I thought you two just had a personality problem. Now I know. He's an ()0()".

1. The only activities your children should be permitted to do are those in which they can eventually win a medal.

WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG

1. That medal must be gold.

WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG

Wow. As a mom myself, I don't even know what to say to that list. Don't compliment your children in public? Always take the teacher's side? Are you kidding? If you're going to take that approach, why not just build a grand canyon between you and your kids?

We all want to see our kids excel, I certainly don't want my kids to be a failure in anything they do, but I do want them to know that they don't have to do everything and they certainly don't have to do everything perfect. There's a lot to be said for being less of a perfectionist and more of a well-rounded human being.

In college, I was doing very well and I went to my adviser and said I'd like to join the Honors program. My adviser said it wouldn't be a problem with my record, but did I want to be mediocre in the Honors group or would I rather be exceptional in the standard classes? It's a choice I got to make, not one that was shoved down my throat by my parents.

We would do our kids a disservice to push them into places they don't belong, to hold them to a higher standard just because we want them to do better. Forcing children to do anything - eat, sports, reading, math, it doesn't matter what - turns that anything into a punishment instead of a hobby or activity they might enjoy. Added pressure pushes kids away. Boredom pushes kids away. Refusing to see something from your kid's perspective certainly pushes them away. How can you create a family unit that's like a team if you're constantly driving your kids crazy? They won't want to play for your team anymore and they'll go find some other team to play for - whether it's drugs, drinking, or just ignoring you...

I think schoolwork should come first. The other things that have to do with academics are impossible to force.

I think it’s OK to compliment your child in public, if you don’t go overboard. If you praise or congratulate them too much when there are other children and parents around, it comes off as rude and boastful -- and what you're really doing is congratulating yourself out loud for having such a wonderful child. In general, we go light on praise, unless our kids actually do something praiseworthy, of course.

Very often, parents tend to take the side of children against teachers or coaches or any adult in charge, regardless. They can’t fathom that their little darling could do anything wrong. While I wouldn’t always take the side of a teacher or coach, I would always hear them out first and consider their side of it before making any sort of judgment. The fact that many parents won’t do this is one of the reasons my wife got fed up with teaching.

I don’t agree with the medal thing, but I also think the whole idea that everyone should get a medal or ribbon is also lame. On my child’s swim team, everyone gets a ribbon, and I think that diminishes the accomplishment of the children who actually win races. The same sort of nonsense went on at the school where my wife taught – all the kids in the spelling bee got a certificate, just for participating. The whole idea that “everyone is special” and all this artificial pumping up of “self-esteem” can be taken to extremes. Sooner or later, you’ll be judged based on your accomplishments. There’s no reason to try and shield children from that reality. In fact, it might actually help them see that they might have to work extra hard at something to get some reward or recognition. Heaven forbid.

According to Chua, the Chinese mother believes:

1. Schoolwork always comes first.
2. An A-minus is a bad grade.
3. Your children must be two years ahead of their classmates in math.
4. You must never compliment your children in public.
5. If your child ever disagrees with a teacher or coach, you must always take the side of the teacher or coach.
6. The only activities your children should be permitted to do are those in which they can eventually win a medal.
7. That medal must be gold.

I'd be soooooo f____.

I'm about 2 years behind in math.

Good thing I'm not Chinese. Not to mention they've got far fewer females being born.

There is about 100 million people in China living in the conditions of the 1800's and are illiterate. So, I wonder if this is just the standards of the urban Chinese?

Originally Posted by Dudester

Parenting is not easy. Hold on too tightly, and they'll run away-first chance they get. Leave them to their own devices is a 50/50 prposition, but also, you have a one in two chance in being disappointed. What I've observed that works best, is supply guidance and give lots of support. What is also an absolute must, is have them enrolled in music, one way or another. As for the other stuff ?

Most people become parents in their 20's. I think that has a lot to do with the perception of parenting being perceived as difficult. I think parenting is exhausting and requires great commitment and sacrifice. If one wants to regard that as "difficult" then so be it.

You only comprehend so much about life and "how a person should be" in your 20's. It's almost impossible not to not make blunders parenting. Fortunately, God in his abundant humor and mercy allows parents to become grandparents. My own parents make good use of it in trying to get into heaven.

I'm not a parent but I've always heard that, "You don't have kids so you don't know...." blah, blah, blah. I became an uncle and unfortunately do to my crack addiction I own the great regret of never having fully fulfilled the role of an uncle/mentor as I should have. Nonetheless, my nephews seem to have affection for me, and I'll bet money they are more responsive or lend more ear to suggestions I might have than many if not most sober uncles throughout the world.

Some things aren't rocket science.

You want a dog to protect you? Feed it gunpowder. Asinine. All you need do is love that dog in a sincere way. The dog will know and will forever defend you. A parent or uncle needs to be sincere in their love for child as well. Children can pick up on this.

When I was a small child my mother, younger brother, and I had to flee the house because my mother said my father was loading up the shotgun to kill us. We took refuge in his mothers home. As traumatic as this may have been for a child I was bred up prepared for this in some measure as my home life was always volatile. Men are bred up to understand love for wife and child is one and the same with social "respectability." One of the reasons many today want to persuade others in their culture that homosexuality is morally acceptable. We like the sound of "toughness" and our taught to ignore family culture and seek answers or blame in political parties. It's not that I fail to love my wife in a sincere way it's that George Bush is in office, or Obama is in office, the anger of my father had nothing to do with it, the anger of his alcoholic mother had nothing to do with it, confronting that is the act of a sissy. I'm tough. Furthermore I'm part of respectable society.

But we search for reasons to explain why we have so many mean people in society and so many social pathologies.

I'm here to tell you that "respectability" is not all its made out to be. Of course respectability differs from one culture and subculture to the next. In my environment it is perfectly respectable to be a drug dealer and a murderer. Heroic in song and story even.

Social class bears on attitudes toward raising children, too. Sociologist know this. Poor people tend to blame. Middle-class people promote hard work and following the rules. Wealthy people promote creativity and less respect for bowing to authority. The individual can hardly - rarely - rise above his our her culture he or she was reared in.

I'm fifteen and I can tell you i will probably not be keeping in touch with my parents after college. Whatever's going on in india/china/japan/around that part of asia, it's silly. my parents are never happy, always disappointed. my test scores are above average in everything, but my mathematical skills are pretty average. they won't have it-- they force me to take an honors class that i fail at horribly. This entire idea of children living better than your parents, but there's a limit. i wouldn't mind a little bit of praise once it a while. i wouldn't mind not having to live up to standards i simple can't. I think it's silly how parents are either at one side of the spectrum or the complete other.

Originally Posted by Lamperoux

I'm fifteen and I can tell you i will probably not be keeping in touch with my parents after college. Whatever's going on in india/china/japan/around that part of asia, it's silly. my parents are never happy, always disappointed. my test scores are above average in everything, but my mathematical skills are pretty average. they won't have it-- they force me to take an honors class that i fail at horribly. This entire idea of children living better than your parents, but there's a limit. i wouldn't mind a little bit of praise once it a while. i wouldn't mind not having to live up to standards i simple can't. I think it's silly how parents are either at one side of the spectrum or the complete other.

I find this very sad. What do you have to lose then, by expressing your frustration to your parents?
I found it very telling that she said she had relaxed her ways some when one of her children let fly and threatened to leave. That speaks volumes to me. After reading the article, I could only think this woman has raised little trophies of her own, to parade around as proof of her self righteous views. And yet, it is from cultural conditioning I think that she pushes this hard, and though I think she is making mistakes, I know I make plenty of my own. Mine fall at the opposite end of the spectrum though, like polar opposites, and so it is hard for me to relate to her child rearing ways. I think she wants the best for them, but I think she could lighten up a whole lot and still have very capable children, and maybe see them for who they are by respecting a few of their preferences.

Originally Posted by Eluixa

I find this very sad. What do you have to lose then, by expressing your frustration to your parents?
I found it very telling that she said she had relaxed her ways some when one of her children let fly and threatened to leave. That speaks volumes to me. After reading the article, I could only think this woman has raised little trophies of her own, to parade around as proof of her self righteous views. And yet, it is from cultural conditioning I think that she pushes this hard, and though I think she is making mistakes, I know I make plenty of my own. Mine fall at the opposite end of the spectrum though, like polar opposites, and so it is hard for me to relate to her child rearing ways. I think she wants the best for them, but I think she could lighten up a whole lot and still have very capable children, and maybe see them for who they are by respecting a few of their preferences.

they don't let me. they wouldn't listen if i did. how do i know this? there are several times in my life when i've tried to go to them for help, but they've just never wanted to help, thinking i'm fretting over nothing. the only thing that worries them is my grades (which is a 3.8 gpa, so why are they worried?) and that's it. i'm always stuck home doing nothing. can't go out with friends, can't get a girlfriend, can't go do stuff anyone else would because they think i'll be spoiled or something of the like. it's silly. if i break free from those chains, i'm not going back into the dungeon.

it's a moral for parents out there, if you push your children off a cliff, they're never gonna come back.

Hang in there then, write, and try for a girlfriend anyhow. They can be sweet and worth the trouble.

Just don't commit fratricide and matricide. Looks bad on your resume plus you might go to prison. Then again... Mississippi apparently gives life sentences to women that commit armed robbery for $11.

If you live in Mississippi maybe it's not your parents, maybe it's just Mississippi.

Bring home a boyfriend. Then you're parents will encourage you to get a girlfriend. If not, and they tell you both you look like a cute couple, then maybe you live in San Francisco and not Mississippi. Just food for thought.

they're not worth the trouble of patricide or matricide...
i live in Pennsylvania so maybe it's because of out proximity to the amish? Anyody agree with this theory?

o, and look at my avatar, my super-religious parents would freak if they ever saw this account.

Actually, Lamper, I'm not raising any atheists. I've never seen my father bend his knee in prayer. My children will see it from me. And if my son comes speaking similar blasphemy about God or Virgin Mary I'll foot jab his *%$ down a water well. Okay, brick wall, it's the city.

A couple shin kicks to the leg and he'll be calling out the dear name of God for help.

1 YouTube - leg kicks, woo

2 YouTube - Leg Kick

3 YouTube - Redneck gets kicked hard by a Thai kickboxer

Originally Posted by Writ-with-Hand

Actually, Lamper, I'm not raising any atheists. I've never seen my father bend his knee in prayer. My children will see it from me. And if my son comes speaking similar blasphemy about God or Virgin Mary I'll foot jab his *%$ down a water well. Okay, brick wall, it's the city.

A couple shin kicks to the leg and he'll be calling out the dear name of God for help.

1 YouTube - leg kicks, woo

2 YouTube - Leg Kick

3 YouTube - Redneck gets kicked hard by a Thai kickboxer

never said you were raising athiests, just saying i am, and my parents are zealous people.

Well, Lamper, I've no idea how zealous your parents are. Perhaps they are fanatical. I don't want to raise any robots, so, a child expressing doubt to me in the existence of God doesn't rate a pop on the head or overly harsh words.

But I don't think it would be fanatical of your parents to be angered over your avatar. It crosses dangerous grounds. Your parents may just wish to save you from burning eternally in hell. So, their anger in that sense would be motivated in love.

I once spoke words against God and it cost me my life. You are treading dangerous grounds. The 30 year old man that strangles his step son to death and receives 60 years or life in prison with no parole will regret his choice when the prison door or bars clank behind him. You can't out thug or out smart Lucifer or God. Be careful which camp and flag you ride under.

This avatar is blasphemous: