Thread: Should smoking be illegal?

People with obesity related diabetes are another example of addicts that can choose to change their situation. This diabetes, I am fairly sure, is far more to do with diet than obesity, though it does run in families and some are in far more danger of it, and have a bigger battle to turn it around. People have used real food and the elimination of corn syrup and processed foods and turned the diabetes diagnosis around. It takes being determined enough to take that one step, then the next, and beginning again if you fall off. Corn syrup is highly addictive. It is in almost everything, in fact, you have to read ingredients carefully to make sure it's not in your bread, your yogurt, your peanut butter, your spagetti sauce, etc. There are people profiting from diabetes, both the industries that make and sell corn products [they know what they are doing having farmers growing acre upon acre of corn. It is what you use to fatten pigs, after all], and the doctors/medical system/pharmaceuticals that insist you are now an invalid, dependent on them for your health, forever. I don't know if every case can be turned, but I know some have done it and more can. Like I don't think every smoker will quit, I don't think every diabetic is willing or interested in changing their situation either. One of the largest difficulties here is the lack of education. Still, that does not mean we cannot educate ourselves.
So whose for making corn syrup illegal? I think rather choosing not to use it is the better way to make changes. I used to buy a certain kind of potato chips, because I could read and understand the ingredients. Potatoes, salt, oil. One day, I came to realize that Lays had reduced their label from about a paragraph of Greek, to the acceptable potatoes, salt and oil. And it can't have been just because I was no longer buying their product. They were losing money to these alternate chip manufacturers and realized it. As I see it the way to see change is to give put the money into the hands of those that are willing to work for/with you, and the others will follow. Celiac is also being diagnosed in big numbers. Manufacturers are realizing that they need to take the gluten out of their product, if it is not necessary [I once saw it in Salsa, I mean come on!]. Labeling GF will also go far in having people buy their product over another unlabeled package.

Originally Posted by Eluixa

Caelum, you are taking the power from the people. People can choose to stop. Addiction [aside from sugar I have not known this personally] is hard, but not stronger than someone that has decided to free themselves. Even if it takes them 7 or 17 or 57 tries. I have seen a family member come back from meth. She is strong, and had a man who loved her that knew what quitting meant, but in the end, it was her decision.

I have a lot of faith in the human spirit, Eluixa, I don't think I'm taking power from people, but showing how that's what cigarettes and addiction do. You say addiction is hard, and in a way that's what I mean, hard because a part of us wants to continue. That's how I mean our freedom is trespassed on, because internal forces are working against us.

I believe the will and resolve of the individual will play a larger role in overcoming addiction than the effects of the addiction itself (except perhaps in extreme cases where despite every effort the person cannot break free). I never stated I think addiction is an excuse, merely that its effects on positive freedom (this term is growing on me ) can't be denied. And I don't think it's a matter of telling people, "You can't handle cigarettes!" so much as telling them, "No one should handle cigarettes because they're poison."

An analogy to your position could be, "You can't tell me not to eat lightbulbs! I'll take the risk if I want to!" Well, yeah, you could do that. . . but why? Why for the love of all that is good, Eluixa, WHY EAT THE LIGHTBULBS?

There are some pretty heroic tales of people overcoming drugs. Every few years in school we'd have a speaker come in who was an ex-addict, telling us how he climbed from addiction and a crummy life.

Originally Posted by Eluixa

People can choose to stop.

As I mentioned earlier - I have chosen to stop. Problem is, twenty hours after stopping I'm going nuts with withdrawal, and start smoking again. The fear of the 2/3 weeks to come is immense. My perception of time as I look ahead has changed dramatically. It is no longer just a couple of weeks and it's done. It's now two torturous weeks of hell, and I'm only at the start. This is why all talk of choice, willpower, really wanting to stop, etc seems meaningless to me. The mind of the nicotine addict is not without these attitudes while smoking, but is very much without these attitudes shortly after quitting the drug.

btw, on the two occasions I have stopped (1 year and a couple of years smoking, then 18 months), I was happy to stop and that made it seem easy to stop. I then had a different frame of mind. I wasn't stopping reluctantly to save money, or for health reasons. So when I read comments that some people stop easilly, I think it's more that there can be a right and wrong time to do it.

Originally Posted by Writ-with-Hand

I don't think I disagree with anything you said except for one thing, that being none of this applies to the real world. I think it does insofar as we are talking about the role of the "coercive" state. You are right it does not reflect the vast majority of cases when it comes to real life recovery. Nonetheless, most states on earth appear to take this "positive liberty" view when it comes drugs like heroin and cocaine - but not tobacco products or alcohol.

Writ, I’m just saying the theory of "positive liberty" doesn't apply in the real world as a means of getting addicts to stop using. Prohibition laws, however well intentioned, can’t force an addict to change his behavior. The addict must choose to quit on his own volition. Of course, laws that can be supported by the notion "positive liberty" exist now and they aren't going away, so in that respect, they do apply in the real world.

That’s not to say that community or collective solutions can’t influence an addict, but the ones that have been shown to be effective are voluntary, not mandated by law. Examples would be 12 step programs or the intervention of family and friends. That would also include being shunned by family, friends and the community at large as a negative consequence of addiction. Addicts don’t choose to quit in a vacuum.

Otherwise, it's my opinion that "positive liberty or freedom" is so much theoretical gobbledygook. It's just a highfallutin way of saying the government always knows better than you do, stated in such a way that it sounds like something good. It's an oxymoron of sorts -- telling people what they can and can't do doesn't have much to do with liberty or freedom.

As it applies to internal conflict, as in the excerpt you posted about the lady and her cigarettes and Oreos, the notion of positive liberty is little more than a rationalization for abdicating personal responsibility. She can't put the cigarettes and Oreos down, so she must rely on someone to snatch them away -- and this supposedly "enhances her liberty." Ha ha.

In that respect, there's nothing positive about "positive liberty" as far as actually helping an addict quit is concerned. To think so shows a fundamental lack of understanding of how addiction and recovery works. If long-term recovery is based on trying to physically separate the addict for his drug of choice -- and that includes making it illegal -- the effort will fail. A recovering addict needs to acquire and use the tools that will allow him to resist his drug of choice, even if someone is shoving it in his face -- or relapse is inevitable.

Originally Posted by spider8

So when I read comments that some people stop easilly, I think it's more that there can be a right and wrong time to do it.

Right on. I'd tried to quit three times over my smoking life. This is the one that has stuck because I was ready for it (and here's hoping it's for good).
I always tell other smokers when they ask me how I did it, that it's gotta be the right time.

Originally Posted by Like a Fox

I always tell other smokers when they ask me how I did it, that it's gotta be the right time.

Heh. Reminds me of that gag in the movie Airplane, when the guy in the control tower says, "Looks like I picked the wrong day to quit smoking -- then it's amphetamines, airplane glue, etc.

I totally agree Spider, and Fox, timing can be crucial. I know about the quitting at night and beginning again in the morning. I can't tell you how many times I've quit tea with sugar, or coffee. And if you are thinking, ah sugar, who can't do that?, well live without it for year as a mother with kids and then get back to me. I am totally wanting to quit at night, I wake up in the morning and nothing sounds better than a warm drink with sugar and cream. And I ask, is this gonna kill me? Probably not today. But it does me no good either.
And Caelum, there is something about the human condition that we insist on abusing ourselves. We know junk food and cigarettes is bad, even when people begin it, they usually know it's bad news, and they do it anyway. Lightbulbs is a weak comparison, because we usually get something we like from our addictions, and a lacerated stomach just does would not fit the bill for most people. These things have to kill you slowly, not send you to the ER immediately.
I like you though and am not underestimating you.

Originally Posted by Eluixa

Lightbulbs is a weak comparison, because we usually get something we like from our addictions, and a lacerated stomach just does would not fit the bill for most people.

I don't know Eluxia, there may be something to it:

Chinese man eats 1,500 light bulbs over 42 years - Shanghaiist

He only dared to eat a small piece of glass at the beginning, but as time passed, he became addicted to eating bulbs.

"Hello, my name is Wang Xianjun. *looks sheepishly around room* And I’m a bulb addict..."

Hopefully, this won't catch on -- or we'll have to make light bulbs illegal too.

I stand corrected. Sort of, lol.

Cigarettes will hopefully phase out in the next generation which will be devoid of cigarette marketing and have less friends to hand them a cig, not to mention that generation being able to blame the death of their favorite grandpa on that back he smoked everyday. In the name of "freedom" we apparently have to give people the legal "right" to be stupid and kill themselves slowly. That said, smoking should be illegal in public and in private places when within x feet of others. My mom will likely die of the same cancer that will kill my grandparents because of their smoking despite never having picked up a cigarette in her life.

People should never smoke around children or in public where it can affect other people. However, I think making smoking illegal would be a fruitless endeavor. Too many people do it, and if it became illegal those who make tobacco products would have a much more profitable market. Being illegal makes things expensive, and although this will deter some people many will want to smoke even more.

I turn to the fact marijuana is illegal but people still smoke it. Many drugs are illegal, but people still use them. As long as smoking is legal there is some ability to control it left. We can put warnings on the label if it's legal, if it's not then we have less power over information.