Thread: Rise in UK Tuition Fees - Can we trust ANY politicians?

This has stirred quite a debate in the Chat Room.

I don't know if there's been much coverage in the US, but it's caused huge anger in the UK, especially among the students and those that will be affected by the rise in tuition fees.

I can't find a reliable overview of what the rise will include (if you can, feel free to post a link), but basically:

In 2012, students will have to pay an average of £9000 a year (that's averaging for all universities. There won't be many that will cost less, and there will be many that will cost more), with the student paying back when they earn £21,000 a year (lowered from £25,000). With a 3 year undergraduate course, that's averaging at about £27,000 for a student's time in university.

Your views?

The following statements are just my views. They don't need arguing or defending.

The best way to control a people is to put them all in debt. What better timing than just after training, because now you own them.

Politicians and trust make a good joke together.

Though a shame about the rise, it was easily seen coming.

If I knew all that money collected was going back into the University for programs and regulated pay(meaning no slides to the sides) then I'd at least see those paying, getting something back and those teaching, get something for.

anyway views given.

Sync

Flashforward twenty years to UK.
"Ey sweetheart, ow was your day at uni?" Says a father to his daughter.
"Fees were due today. I'm tired, I think I'm anemic." Says the daughter rubbing the needle mark on her arm.
"You better get on top of that love, they won't accept payment if it's poor quality and you know what appened to Mrs. Smithe's daughter. They took her liver that's what."

On top of this, though, the Lib Dems are now hated. They made a pledge to oppose all rise in fees. They have gone against that pledge, and still after the vote on Thursday they support the rise in tuition fees.

Such blatant lies?!

The Lib Dems were considered the 'saints' of English politics. A lot of people trusted them. Oh well, more lying politicians. Everyone will now flood to the support of Labour, but they will fail to realise that Ed Miliband has done the same thing - he has claimed he would vote against the rise in tuition fees on Thursday, but has also claimed he would not change the raised tuition fees if Labour got into power in the next general election.

More lying politicians...

Who's up for a universal mutiny?

I've always wanted to be on the other side of a demonstration. I've worn the gear but always wanted to carry a sign so i'm in

People were gullible enough to believe that the Lib Dems were ever going to abolish tuition fees. That's part of the problem. These are politicians we're talking about, for crying out loud! Why do people keep believing the lies they tell? They do it every . . . single . . . time. Barack Obama, the saviour of the world when he took office almost two years ago, has reneged on every promise he made. Why? Because every politician who ever lived is the same. They look out for number one and that's it.

I cheer on those students. Burn the Houses of Parliament to the ground. Take Nick Clegg outside and hang him from a lamppost. Show the government and the 'elite' that we're not going to stand by any longer and tolerate this nonsense. They should have burned the royal car with Charles and Camilla in it. That's the only way you will ever get change in any part of this world -- by staging a coup.

You probably think I'm crazy now, but I've been singing this tune for years. People are starting to wake up and realise that it's the same ****, different day and nothing will ever change. Not unless we make it.

I know very little about politics, and less about economics... but I know about morals and ethics.

I'd put my vote to removing all funding for aggressive warfare (leaving defensive warfare; if you can tell the difference), and putting that money towards education, housing, and food. You could argue for the medical industry, but I think they're as bad as the 'aggressive warfare' people.

We'd have such a strong economy and stable citizens that we'd excel in all other areas. That alone would grant us the allies and support they'd need to remain free from violence; until such a time that the rest of the world followed suit.

Years ago, we had free higher education for everyone. If you were smart enough, you could follow your chosen career without restraint. I'm not sure what's changed with finances in the mean time... but it was a change for the worst.

I've seen photos on yahoo news of Italian students rioting with police over tuition increases.

It's understandable the youth in the U.K. or Italy will be angered or have some emotional investment in the rising tuition costs of attending college. But my question is this: can it truly be avoided? That's more a question than it is a declarative statement. I mean... it seems to me European governments can no longer keep financing so many areas of their citizens lives to the monetary extent they once did. And I say "seems to me" because I don't know for sure.

I have a cynical view of politicians and government like Sam, although, I don't take as hard line a view as he does. I do think public serves can be nobly carried out through public office. I think some politicians have been good dedicated men and women with well intentions even if they may from time to time stumbled by making wrong decisions. I've read two books in the past by former Czechoslovakian President Vaclev Havel (spelling?). Prior to his presidency he spent time in prison. He is a respected playwright and I believe he is a poet too. As President he composed all his speeches too. Remarkable. I got the impression he was a good man. That said, I hold the cynical view that most politicians look out for number one, like Sam stated.

But on a macro level "Identity Politics" isn't entirely all that different.

Ultimately the European students might have to bite the bullet on this one. Could be worse, you could be born a woman rural Afghanistan or born into an impoverished slum family in El Salvador. Your chances at an intellectual life or upward mobility would be slim to none then. Go to college, pay the money back, and don't worry about doing "donkey shows" in Mexico.

I think the political system is too refined for anyone person to move in any way that truly benefits people. By that, I mean that the regulations, laws, policies, procedures, etc that govern the people in charge prevent them from following through on good intentions. It's those that have bad intentions that have implemented these regulations (et al) which in turn serve a select few rather than the whole.

Governments are more like businesses these days. And because of this, it will be businesses that will eventually take them down; and I think it'll be the banks that do this.

Enough countries are technically bankrupt at the moment for some drastic changes in world economics to take place. Not that I know any specifics.. I'm just repeating words I heard from others who say they know what's going on.

Some countries are better off than others, but Australia at least, isn't reducing funding for education. But they are increasing costs for courses. I'm just glad that I've got my degrees in time to earn a decent living, so that if I want to go back and study more, I'll be able to afford it. It's all about breaching the increasingly large gap between the middle and upper class citizens.

The tragedy, of course, is two fold.

1.) The fact that the government is the sole arbiter in determining the price of tuition, as opposed to the market. Without any competition, what incentive/reason do they have not to raise prices?

2.) The belief that education is a right. Go live on a desert island and tell me if nature provides you with a PhD.

Originally Posted by VcatoV

2.) The belief that education is a right. Go live on a desert island and tell me if nature provides you with a PhD.

As intelligent creatures, we all have a right to education. Knowledge enriches the mind (though some might say ignorance is bliss, as is the cliché). If the person wants an education then it is surely 'right' to let them, rather than restrict their path to knowledge.

But my question is this: can it truly be avoided? That's more a question than it is a declarative statement. I mean... it seems to me European governments can no longer keep financing so many areas of their citizens lives to the monetary extent they once did. And I say "seems to me" because I don't know for sure.

A rise in tuition fees would be expected in this global recession, but what makes those opposing the cuts so angry about this rise is that it is a threefold rise, lots of the money the government will get from the tuition fees will ultimately go towards areas of the country that are considered less important, known tax avoiders still are left to themselves, and are labelled 'prime examples' of good citizens by the likes of David Cameron (Sir Philip Green, for example), the government was - and is - happy to splash out in areas that are not important, like the 2012 Olympics, which had a massive budget poured into it that put the UK in huge debt (approximately £9 billion was used on the Olympics, I believe? This figure could be wrong, so anyone that knows can feel free to correct me), and still students are encouraged to continue with further education, meaning for many it is like getting their hopes up, before crushing them. If many of the future students that didn't show a particular interest were led to different areas of focus, like Apprenticeships, then less would be wanting to attend Universities, meaning the massive rise in fees wouldn't be necessary.

I'm sure there are more points to cover, but I'd say those are some lengthy reasons for these protests.

This thread can also be about how the police are handling the protests. The 'kettling' technique as well as the use of horses in London and other areas have caused huge controversy.

12-year-old boy warned by police over planned David Cameron picket

I thought this was interesting, and made me quite angry, too.

If you don't mind me saying this, what kind of moron decides it's okay to use horses in a protest? Does common sense not suggest that horses and crowds do not go together? What were the animals supposed to do only panic? It's complete nonsense. We don't live in the 1800s anymore. It's not like horses are the only form of transport. If all else fails, walk.

i think the whole thing stinks and if i were there i'd throw rotten eggs at number 10 downing street - just for fun!

People have a right to be upset. They also have a right to an education. Most countries force its citizens to get some form of education. Why have them meet some minimum standard at a cheap cost, only to say that any more education will cost you your house. It doesn't make sense...

As an example, a government school in Western Australia will charge less than $25,000 for 12 years of schooling (years 1 through to 12). Roughly $2,100 per year. This is much lower than the $10,100 per year to become a doctor. (these amounts are less books, amenities, ancillary costs, etc).

Granted, a professor will be paid more than a high school teacher. But he/she also takes on more students. When looked at like this.. the costs seem extreme when compared to the benefits. And the benefits are having qualified staff available to meet the demands of an evolving country.

There are waiting lists for some medical treatments more than a year long. Imagine being sick, unable to work, and being told that you have to wait a year for treatment... and that people are reluctant to become doctors because the costs of an education are too high.

Not only do people have a right to receive a higher education, but the citizens have a right to the services those people would provide.

Originally Posted by VcatoV

Go live on a desert island and tell me if nature provides you with a PhD.

'Nature' cannot provide you with a PhD.. but our society can. Living on a desert island will give you the skills to live on that island (according to your ability/interest/motivation). In the same way that living in a society should provide you with the skills you need to survive in that society (according to your ability/interest/motivation).

Education isn't a privilege.

Originally Posted by Sam W

People were gullible enough to believe that the Lib Dems were ever going to abolish tuition fees. That's part of the problem. ... Barack Obama, the saviour of the world when he took office almost two years ago, has reneged on every promise he made. Why?

I think it's more like 15% or his original campaign promises and about 40% kept, and rest pending. I forget what your point is but considering your knowledge it could hardly be valid.