Thread: United Nations votes in favor of executing homosexuals

I feel powerless Baron. It is another drop in the ocean of absurdity due to religion. I love foreign films, but so far I've shied away from one's like The Stoning of Soraya. It is hard to watch. I know it has a bad ending. I know these things happen and if I could wave a wand and make it go away...but I cannot. There is too much pain and too many things going awry. Where to begin? I guess, we begin with us, but there is little we can do to force others to do the same.
Do unto others seems such a simple concept, and yet?

Originally Posted by Baron

I find it disturbing that there are so many comments, rightfully, about how bad this decision concerning homosexuals is and yet my mention of the fact that the same Arab/Islamic block at the UN is also trying to get a similar result concerning their blasphemy laws gets no comment, This despite the face that a woman faces the death sentence in Pakistan even as I'm typing this. Why should her situation, and the fact that the Arab block want to prevent groups like Amnesty International "interfering", cause less outrage?

Baron, one thing I realize about people is they have agendas. To some lesser or greater extent we all do. That includes myself. Religious and non-religious have them. The Catholic Church and atheists like Richard Dawkins as an example, are not agenda free.

One thing the Catholic Church does get right in my opinion - assuming it gets other things wrong - is its tradition and ability to judge specific doctrines, laws, or principles wrong.

The Catholic intellectual (as opposed to a rural uneducated mother) can say: I agree with Muslims on X, but I disagree with Muslims on Y. I agree with atheists on X, but I disagree with atheists on Y.

A lot of atheists can learn from the Catholic intellectual tradition with regards to that. Rather than simply reducing all acrimony or violence in the human social sphere as a phenomena simply due to religion.

Is the Catholic Church of Mexico wrong for its condemnation and excommunication of violent Mexican drug Cartel members? How is all criminal violence in Europe, Canada, the United States or even modern day Russia simply reducible to religion? Especially given that much of Russia and certain Eastern European countries (with high crime rates) have significant rates of atheism stemming from decades of communist culture.

Many liberals in the U.S. I find, at least of ones that dislike religion in general, will defend Islam, any questionable thing within some (not all) Islamic countries, with their silence, due to their agenda against Christianity or religion as a whole. It's that simple.

Wisconsin does not have the death penalty. If American Catholic Bishops object to the death penalty in Texas it is not because they object to Texans simply because they are Texans. It is asinine to object to religion as a whole because of some perceived error however prevalent among Muslim societies.

It does not even follow logic to suggest: Mormons have multiple wives, Mormons are part of organized religion, therefore all religions condone men having multiple wives.

One can't logically say because Texas has X every state in the Union has X or because the English have a monarchy and queen then Americans and every nation in the world has a monarchy and queen.

And American deaths in Southeast Asia during the Vietnam War was not over religion. It was rooted in very secular ideological concerns - competing economic and political goals. And Americans kill more people every generation, crusading for "Freedom," than any Muslim nations kill gay people. Americans even kill their own children in their wombs for the sacred idea on "Freedom." If you can pay a doctor to assassinate your child you can kill anyone given enough motivation. If your country can legalize the assassination of millions of vulnerable developing babies than your country - with enough propaganda and political motivation - can assassinating anyone insignificant to votes and taxation.

Writ, I am a liberal who has issues with what people do in the name of religion. I have issues with regards to ANY religion. If I defend a Muslim, it is because they are a people, as human and brilliant and fallible as any other people in any other nation, with many good people, many, many wonderful people. Every nation in our world has stupid, fanatic fools. I have issues with them.

Originally Posted by Eluixa

Writ, I am a liberal who has issues with what people do in the name of religion. I have issues with regards to ANY religion. If I defend a Muslim, it is because they are a people, as human and brilliant and fallible as any other people in any other nation, with many good people, many, many wonderful people. Every nation in our world has stupid, fanatic fools. I have issues with them.

People do good in the name of religion too. I think liberal political philosopher John Rawls cited Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. as an example. John Rawls is widely regarded as the greatest political philosopher of the 20th century. He did not shy away from the issue of religion either. Until his experiences in WWII he wanted to be an Episcopalian Priest - the religion sect of many English and Americans. Alan who is a member of this website, is a Christian and specifically an Episcopalian I believe. Alan and I may not share the same views on all things but from what I know of him from this board I admire him more than most heterosexual men of any religion (Catholic or non-Christian), nationality, or political persuasion.

John Rawl's - I think he was too optimistic about humans and therefore too impractical - conceptualized his "Original Position" that took in account gender, race, sexual orientation, socio-economic levels, and religion.

In the theorized "Original Position" no one can no for sure what their identity will be and therefore will prudently vote with that in mind and for justice and equality for all. That includes justice - as fairness for Rawls - for Christians too, Eluixa.

After all, you can't know for sure Eluixa, that had things been different for both of us, either one of us could have turned out a devoted Southern Baptist or Sunni Muslim. As it happens... from the cradle I have received to faiths. That of Catholicism through my German bloodlines that have been faithful members of Mother Church since time immemorial. In chivalry and on horseback facing off Turks before the United States was even a thought. That of the Democratic Party which may parents imparted its "religiously" denominational tenets to me. The later I have since rejected entirely.

It's probably good to bring up John Rawls too. Rawls's taught that what he regarded as "decent" nations should be tolerated by the Western World irrespective of "decent" nations lacking full Civil Rights for all. And decent nations would be most Islamic countries that do not guarantee Civil Rights for women and homosexuals. Nations regarded as worse than Rawls's "decent peoples" or nations, are nations the Western World should wage economic sanctions or martial war against, in Rawls's opinion.

I'm just pointing out the views of the Western World's greatest political philosopher of the 20th century. I'm not suggesting he was right.

I know religious people do good things. T'is not that I am objecting to. This is a forum. You cannot possibly deduce my entire character from a few things I have said or not said. Shoot, ran out of time. Back later.

Originally Posted by Eluixa

I know religious people do good things. T'is not that I am objecting to. This is a forum. You cannot possibly deduce my entire character from a few things I have said or not said. Shoot, ran out of time. Back later.

I don't think I've tried to, Eluixa. I never said you tortured bunny rabbits or like married men.

And for the record I'm cynical about most people including myself. I wouldn't mind whacking a few people through blunt trauma, or excessively large knives, or strangulation by my own dead, autistic hands. If I could sit in a chair and strangle myself with my own emotionally retarded fingers and grip, then I would. But I can't, so, looks like I have to put up with the UN and the UN has to put up with me. For good or ill God wanted us two bastards (the UN and I) here together. Them reaping good upon earth and me reaping hell upon man. When all else fails God sends his angel of death, Writ-with-Hand, to slay people with words.

Or maybe I'm just rambling.

i could imagine this escalating out of control very easily. A politician they don't like? Now he's conveniently gay.
I belive i first heard of this coming out of Uganda as a newspaper there called the 'Rolling Stone' (wonder where they got that name from!) was posting the names and personal information of people that were allegedly gay, and was encouraging people to take a vigilante's cause and kill them.

it's a sick thing indeed.

Originally Posted by Eluixa

Writ, I am a liberal who has issues with what people do in the name of religion. I have issues with regards to ANY religion. If I defend a Muslim, it is because they are a people, as human and brilliant and fallible as any other people in any other nation, with many good people, many, many wonderful people. Every nation in our world has stupid, fanatic fools. I have issues with them.

i like you haha.

Reading the blasphemy article reminded me of The Crucible. I also saw a documentary the other week where people were in prison for witchcraft, I can't even remember the country (African). The 'trials' were laughable. The evidence mostly ammounted to fingerpointing after a falling-out. I watched most of it shaking my head in disbelief, just like the blasphemy article. It's so hard to equate the decent religeous people I know and have known with these countries, but not impossible. If religeous people had more power here (UK), our country wouldn't be quite so liberal.

Over the centuries, the church and royalty have slowly but surely lost most of their powers. Looking at these news reports is almost like looking back in time. I agree a bit with Eluixa in that I despair to the extent where there's hardly any point in reading these reports. They're upsetting and there's nothing I can do about it. (if that's what she said).

Originally Posted by spider8

Reading the blasphemy article reminded me of The Crucible. I also saw a documentary the other week where people were in prison for witchcraft, I can't even remember the country (African). The 'trials' were laughable. The evidence mostly ammounted to fingerpointing after a falling-out. I watched most of it shaking my head in disbelief, just like the blasphemy article. It's so hard to equate the decent religeous people I know and have known with these countries, but not impossible. If religeous people had more power here (UK), our country wouldn't be quite so liberal.

Yeah... and your country wouldn't have had a history of forcibly sterilizing women either.

The modern witch trial and witch hunt for unborn children is possibly only something perceived as civilized. I'm not convinced it is civility albeit it's not the same as burning people at the stake for witch craft or torturing someone because you suspect they might be homosexual. Nonetheless, it's assassination. Stated another way it is killing what you believe to in fact be a human child so you don't have to have the inconvenience of giving birth to and raising a human child. That's why they call it "Planned Parenthood" as opposed to "We Are Unsure If Being Pregnant Equates To Having A Growing Child Inside You Dot Org."

Over the centuries, the church and royalty have slowly but surely lost most of their powers. Looking at these news reports is almost like looking back in time. I agree a bit with Eluixa in that I despair to the extent where there's hardly any point in reading these reports. They're upsetting and there's nothing I can do about it. (if that's what she said).

John Paul II was adamant clergy should stay out of public office. In general most Priests do not hold public offices but I believe there are a few exceptions in a few countries.

Clerical withdrawal from public offices is therefore voluntary. That's at least the case with Catholicism but not the case exactly with various Protestant denominations. At least not in the United States.

The case you point out in Africa is anomaly. No Christians in the United States or throughout most the world burns witches in the 21st century. Catholic Priests and pastors of mainstream Protestant denominations are better educated than the average (mean wise) American. Certainly this is true throughout Latin America, Africa, and most of Asia. I'll hazard a guess that it's true throughout most of Europe too.

So, if anyone is going to kill anyone over something stupid it's more likely to be one of these young persons graduating from a secularized public school barely able to read. Oh wait... that's currently happening in the United States.

I bet you can't find me a Catholic high school or college burning women on campus for being witches. But I'm sure you can find secular universities and high schools in the U.S. where students have tried, sentenced, and executed their fellow students (or peers in the case of faculty) in a blaze of bullets. Should I infer something about all the secular world from these rare events?

(less rare are all the public high schools that have set up metal detectors and have to search students lockers for possible firearms)

Originally Posted by Writ-with-Hand

Yeah... and your country wouldn't have had a history of forcibly sterilizing women either.

The modern witch trial and witch hunt for unborn children is possibly only something perceived as civilized. I'm not convinced it is civility albeit it's not the same as burning people at the stake for witch craft or torturing someone because you suspect they might be homosexual. Nonetheless, it's assassination. Stated another way it is killing what you believe to in fact be a human child so you don't have to have the inconvenience of giving birth to and raising a human child. That's why they call it "Planned Parenthood" as opposed to "We Are Unsure If Being Pregnant Equates To Having A Growing Child Inside You Dot Org."

John Paul II was adamant clergy should stay out of public office. In general most Priests do not hold public offices but I believe there are a few exceptions in a few countries.

Clerical withdrawal from public offices is therefore voluntary. That's at least the case with Catholicism but not the case exactly with various Protestant denominations. At least not in the United States.

The case you point out in Africa is anomaly. No Christians in the United States or throughout most the world burns witches in the 21st century. Catholic Priests and pastors of mainstream Protestant denominations are better educated than the average (mean wise) American. Certainly this is true throughout Latin America, Africa, and most of Asia. I'll hazard a guess that it's true throughout most of Europe too.

So, if anyone is going to kill anyone over something stupid it's more likely to be one of these young persons graduating from a secularized public school barely able to read. Oh wait... that's currently happening in the United States.

I bet you can't find me a Catholic high school or college burning women on campus for being witches. But I'm sure you can find secular universities and high schools in the U.S. where students have tried, sentenced, and executed their fellow students (or peers in the case of faculty) in a blaze of bullets. Should I infer something about all the secular world from these rare events?

(less rare are all the public high schools that have set up metal detectors and have to search students lockers for possible firearms)

we don't burn women on campuses, true. But we burn gays, or close enough anyways.

Originally Posted by Lamperoux

we don't burn women on campuses, true. But we burn gays, or close enough anyways.

Gonorrhea?

No... we do that to heterosexuals too.

What i would think is important to understand is that the difference with Muslim countries is that Islam and shariah are the backbone to their law and their approach is much more orthodox when compared to countries which claim to be Christian but totally undermined the Christian view on homosexuality .