Thread: Can Morality Evolve Without Spirituality?

Rape and murder have been an accepted part of warfare from the beginning of time. Would the view that these acts are immoral have come into being without spiritual influence?


Credits:
Thread inspired by Joseph B
Circular motion courtesy of WF Members Past
Wall to bang head against provided by WF Smilies
Atheist argument generated by Faith in Nothing
Christian argument conceived by Faith in God
Original arguments courtesy of Remains to be Seen
Illumination borrowed from Background Radiation
Missing particles are still absent courtesy of LHC

Any original argument that appears in this thread will be regarded as evidence of the miraculous. This may result in the member who posts such an argument being nominated for canonization.

Atheist argument generated by Faith in Nothing

God is nothing.

Wow. What an elaborate way to avoid answering a question. Change the gist of it -- and then move it to a new thread.

Originally Posted by JosephB

Wow. What an elaborate way to avoid answering a question. Change the gist of it -- and then move it to a new thread.

I haven't changed the gist, Joseph, I've focused the debate to allow for broader debate.

Without the inspiration of the blue fairy and the cricket could Pinocchio have arrived at a sense of morality?

You’re still not answering the original question. I’ve lost interest at this point -- so don't bother answering on my account.

Yes.

/thread

Originally Posted by JosephB

You’re still not answering the original question. I’ve lost interest at this point -- so don't bother answering on my account.

I wasn't attempting to answer any question, Joseph, just opening a discussion. The thread in the lounge had gone way off topic so I moved the debate here. Simple.

religion, in my athiest opinion, is the manifestation of fear of the unkown, and the desire for order and comfort. A part of this, order, was attained by saying an almighty force would punish you if you didn't do the 'right thing' ---->the right thing being following the moral standards of your culture. Religion has made civilization what it is today, given it it's organization and beauty, i cannot deny that.
I don't believe that there is a god, yet i don't rape and murder. The reason--> It's not beneficial to society to do it.
If man can realize that he must do tings not out of fear of God, or out of holy punishment, but because it is the way we will prosper and survive, morality cna evolve and become better without God.
Athiesm has casue suffering, i know. SO has religion. Bigotry cna come in the form of a zealous man, and the form of a man with a lack of faith. The Demagogues of the world will always exist (at least in our current state of being), but we cna change it.

Morality is a natural state of mankind, those who rape, pillage and loot simply have a different morality, and often do it because they disagree with the morality of those they are doing it to. Spirituality and organised religion discuss morality, then, having done so, draw conclusions which actually stultify the further evolution of morality.

Originally Posted by Baron

Credits:
Thread inspired by Joseph B
Circular motion courtesy of WF Members Past
Wall to bang head against provided by WF Smilies
Atheist argument generated by Faith in Nothing
Christian argument conceived by Faith in God
Original arguments courtesy of Remains to be Seen
Illumination borrowed from Background Radiation
Missing particles are still absent courtesy of LHC

Any original argument that appears in this thread will be regarded as evidence of the miraculous. This may result in the member who posts such an argument being nominated for canonization.

That was actually pretty funny.

If no God exists or if the Buddhist are totally wrong about Karma and reincarnation then I really don't see how morality can exist, be some truism as a concept.

That said... I think there is something to Richard Dawkins theory of memes. They are something one might consider as non-biological genes. Daniel Denett gives a talk on them on Ted.Com. So, from that perspective I think it is quite possible to discourage rape, homicide, and slavery without the need of a "spirituality."

There are a lot of atheists and agnostics un-at-ease with evolutionary theory and its potential for revolutionizing human thought by the way. We the average lay people are largely kept out the loop of the big brain discussions and theorizing that goes on amongst graduate level academia and scientists. The humanities in academia are probably as, if not more, antagonistic to some evolutionary discourse than what some view as the "less sophisticated" religious are.

One big question regards what constitutes "life"? With the existence of viruses it seems the biological definition is lacking. Some evolutionary philosophers and scientists would ask whether "life" can be expanded to include Artificial Life. We the average lay persons can never imagine our 14 year old daughters being given the death penalty for "murdering" 24 partly robotic units... but maybe that day is not too far off.

Denett on memes: Dan Dennett on dangerous memes | Video on TED.com

OK, my football game is over now, so back to less important things.

Originally Posted by Baron

I wasn't attempting to answer any question, Joseph, just opening a discussion. The thread in the lounge had gone way off topic so I moved the debate here. Simple.

Yes. I know you weren’t attempting to answer the question, Rob. That’s obvious.

Anyway, previously you said:

Originally Posted by Baron

I meant that the ethic which deems these things [rape and murder] wrong came from the Judao-Christian belief system

I asked:

Originally Posted by JosephB

I don't think it would take a lot of effort to come up with examples of societies where there was or is no Judeo-Christian influence, yet where rape and murder are considered wrong and unacceptable. Do you really think Christians have the market cornered on that -- all over the world and throughout history?

The question wasn’t about some generic spirituality, rather the “Judeo-Christian ethic” specifically. That’s not really focusing the debate. The opposite, really.

You seem to be saying that Christianity is the sole reason we aren't running around raping and murdering each other with impunity. For some reason, you don't want to support your position -- so I can only assume you can't.

Without the inspiration of the blue fairy and the cricket could Pinocchio have arrived at a sense of morality?

Pinnochio is a fictional character.


Morality arises because we need to live together without upsetting each other. There is no spiritual reason why the law states we cannot murder. Problems come about from people murdering each other so it makes sense to outlaw it.

Rape and murder are pretty nasty (to state the obvious). If they were legal they would cause a lot of vengeful attacks by bereaved family members. Making them against the law is a way to stop any of the nastiness occurring plus it also acts as a kind of detterent to anyone thinking about doing it. I don't see how spirituality would apply when it is obvious how these laws have come to pass.

Originally Posted by Amber Leaf

Pinnochio is a fictional character.

You'll be trying to tell me there are no leprechauns next.