Thread: Can Morality Evolve Without Spirituality?

The truth is, these people believers or un-believers should realize the ones doing the abusing, the manipulating, the lying are people who couldn't care less about other people. These selfish individuals should be exposed and brought to justice.

Two words come into my mind: paranoid and negative.

People who find a computer in their room and meat and potatoes in their plate believe they are immune to the manipulating, but are they really? Truth is, these people are being played just as the poor on the plains of Africa are.

Who is playing them? You say - 'truth is'. I would like to see the evidence for the truth you speak of.

Spiritual people are more capable of noticing the games played by the powerful.

Really? How is this so?

Originally Posted by Robinjazz

Quite frankly, posts such as these bring nonsense to life. They take the focus from the truth. People manipulate and divide, power people who head governments, churches, banks, etc.

A simple-minded atheist, as a simple-minded religious person, leads his or her life obeying laws. Goodness matters most to them. These people have made a personal choice to believe or not to believe in God. That's their business.

The truth is, these people believers or un-believers should realize the ones doing the abusing, the manipulating, the lying are people who couldn't care less about other people. These selfish individuals should be exposed and brought to justice.

People who find a computer in their room and meat and potatoes in their plate believe they are immune to the manipulating, but are they really? Truth is, these people are being played just as the poor on the plains of Africa are.

Spiritual people are more capable of noticing the games played by the powerful. But, if a spiritual person wastes his or her time on prayer and meditation alone, then that person becomes no different from the power players.

What if you find a computer on your plate and meat and potatoes in your room?

Originally Posted by Amber Leaf

Two words come into my mind: paranoid and negative.



Who is playing them? You say - 'truth is'. I would like to see the evidence for the truth you speak of.



Really? How is this so?

I'll tell you how. For Instance, take the Great Wall of China. What's so great about it? It was built by slave labor (and rumor has it that when those who were forced to build it died doing so, their remains were tossed into the wall as though it were building materials), yet dumb European and American tourists visit it and stare at it in awe.

It has been said the wall was built to keep the people of China safe from invading tribes. Yet, was it really? What kept the poor slaves who built it safe from their own leaders. Those poor slaves were caught between a rock (their own leaders) and a hard place (invading mongels).

Yet had the mongels invaded China, would the fate of the slaves who died building the wall be any different? Possibly. It couldn't have been any worse--they died forced building the Great Wall.

See. You learn something every day Amber. All it takes is a little less squawking about nonsense and a bit more meditating.


Oops, almost forget--the wall. Start up the bulldozers.

But the sad fact is there are too many walls and not enough bulldozers. But, then, you are God, so maybe you could do something.

Dumb America and European tourists visit the great wall of China because of it's historical value. For the day, it was an amazing accomplishment -- regardless of who provided the labor -- and had an impact on the history of China and the region. Are you suggesting we boycott historical landmarks that were built by oppressive regimes? We can't learn anything from them?

The short answer to the original post is, no, it cannot.

But consider how much depends on how we define 'spiritual'. Do we mean something supernatural? Or do we mean natural human reason, affection, and emotion?

Nothing supernatural has ever been a part of my personal belief system. The world is exactly what it appears to be in bright sunlight. The shadows of evening and the black of midnight do not hide mysteries, but only cover in darkness for a little while the reality we will find again come the morning.

Spiritually we live in a pre-dawn epoch, groping in the dark. We do murder in the name of religion and call it righteousness, or in the name of politics and call it patriotism. We steal in the name of prosperity and call our greed good business. We race to find paradise as we blindly trample underfoot those who live in torment all around us.

When our true spiritual natures are awakened the sun will rise on a new day. We will walk in the light. Each of us will look on every other human and see a brother or a sister, a member of our beloved family. Each of us will see that harm done to another is harm done to ourselves. Each of us will defend the one who is weak, share what we have with the one who has not, offer hope to the one in whom hope has died.

We will understand that to help another is the only good, to hurt another the only evil.

The world is exactly what it appears to be in bright sunlight, but too many walk in the shadows.

Originally Posted by JosephB

Dumb America and European tourists visit the great wall of China because of it's historical value. For the day, it was an amazing accomplishment -- regardless of who provided the labor -- and had an impact on the history of China and the region. Are you suggesting we boycott historical landmarks that were built by oppressive regimes? We can't learn anything from them?

It's just as well that the only historical landmarks in the States are natural ones.

caelum - Had conditions on Earth developed differently, life on Earth would have evolved differently or not at all. No organism survives in conditions which are not favourable, and no race survives in conditions which are not suitable for sustainable reproduction. Thus when conditions on Earth no longer favoured the survival of the large reptiles, the large reptiles disappeared leaving room for the more adaptable mammals.

Originally Posted by garza

caelum - Had conditions on Earth developed differently, life on Earth would have evolved differently or not at all. No organism survives in conditions which are not favourable, and no race survives in conditions which are not suitable for sustainable reproduction. Thus when conditions on Earth no longer favoured the survival of the large reptiles, the large reptiles disappeared leaving room for the more adaptable mammals.

Which is why life evolving the way it has, giving rise to humanity, is so miraculous. It must have been designed that way (so goes the argument).

I'm more inclined to think we're a happy, happy fluke, but who really knows, man.

ROBIN -

But the sad fact is there are too many walls and not enough bulldozers. But, then, you are God, so maybe you could do something.

I don't want to do anything about walls except maybe graffiti one or two of them occasionally. JoesphB's post sums up what I think about your view on the wall of China. You are 'God' too by the way. Why don't you do something about it?

Garza -

The short answer to the original post is, no, it cannot.

But consider how much depends on how we define 'spiritual'. Do we mean something supernatural? Or do we mean natural human reason, affection, and emotion?

Reason, affection and emotion are natural parts of humanity but are not necessarily spiritual. Reason is the logical way we learn from our experience, affection and emotion are both biological reactions to stimuli. You seem to be using spirituality as a metaphor for these processes.

Someone completely without beliefs can still chose to have morals and evolve those morals to gain atrophy within the world. A metaphor isn't needed for people to behave well towards each other.


BARON -

It's just as well that the only historical landmarks in the States are natural ones.

What about the Hoover Damn, Mount Rushmore etc...?

I'm more inclined to think we're a happy, happy fluke, but who really knows, man.

No-one so far as we all know so if that is the case why not suspend belief until we do know?

Originally Posted by Baron

It's just as well that the only historical landmarks in the States are natural ones.

Heh. One of the usual ingredients in humor is a grain of truth. And if you're not trying to be funny, then it doesn't even make sense.

Double-fail.

Originally Posted by JosephB

Dumb America and European tourists visit the great wall of China because of it's historical value. For the day, it was an amazing accomplishment -- regardless of who provided the labor -- and had an impact on the history of China and the region. Are you suggesting we boycott historical landmarks that were built by oppressive regimes? We can't learn anything from them?

It's historical only to fools and idiots. What has more value than human life? A stupid wall that stupid people idolize?

Truth is, some folks won't recognize the truth if it walked up to them and slapped them across the face. Wake up, walls are still being built--all around you. And it isn't any God who's constructing them.

Originally Posted by Foxee

In what way is this natural morality or trend toward morality exhibited?

Helping one another. Why would you suggest a ‘trend’? Morality would have most likely evolved out of necessity and has been around as long as we have.

Scientist Finds the Beginnings of Morality in Primate Behavior. "Some animals are surprisingly sensitive to the plight of others. Chimpanzees, who cannot swim, have drowned in zoo moats trying to save others. Given the chance to get food by pulling a chain that would also deliver an electric shock to a companion, rhesus monkeys will starve themselves for several days."

It seems that a lot of people answering here believe that man is either intrinsically good or evolving to be moral even if that isn't the intent. What causes this desire to be moral (if it exists?) or to call things like rape and murder 'immoral' if spirituality is completely left out of the equation?

Mankind is both intrinsically good and not so good. The universe seeks balance. But individuals are capable of being both as well. To answer the question, "what causes the desire to be moral"? At some point, rolling along with evolution, the adage "there is strength in numbers" would have naturally been acted upon by developing humans long before this bit of nature's wisdom would be realized. Likewise, this natural survival response would give rise to a code of conduct necessary for people living and working together - the birth of morality.

I don't think spirituality enters the equation until mankind attempts introspection to better understand his world, and then sums it up. But we'll have to wait for the chimpanzees and rhesus monkeys to confirm.

I would appreciate an explanation for this beyond the simple assertion that it is so.

Now it's your turn.

It's historical only to fools and idiots. What has more value than human life? A stupid wall that stupid people idolize?

Just like the Hoover Damm. How many people lost their lives building that thing? Who are these fools and idiots of which you speak? Are they really relevant to this debate?

Truth is, some folks won't recognize the truth if it walked up to them and slapped them across the face

Truth is, no-one knows the truth so they probably wouldn't recognise it if it was able to walk up and slap them in the face. Most people would however, after the shock of the pain, then question the credentials of this so called 'truth' character who is able to slap people and choose to react how they wish.

Wake up, walls are still being built--all around you. And it isn't any God who's constructing them.

Again with the metaphysics. I see, hear, feel nor smell any walls around me apart from the ones in the gardens out the back. If a wall was to be built around here it would need planning permission.

If you are taking about metaphorical walls such as restraints on liberties, walls of fear imposed by mass media, a wall of secrecy that a mass corporation hides behind and such things then go out and do something about it if you believe these kinds of things are happening. This is a debate about morals. People who keep their minds open are not stupid cattle being herded by faceless demons.