Thread: The Proposed Mosque at Ground Zero

Not much worse? I'd say it's far less worse.

If these politicians that are hell-bent upon not allowing this community center to stand are really true to what they say, i want them to do one hting. I want them to stand in front of the american people, and tell every muslim american that has had a son, father, daughter, mother, brother, or sister die in 9/11 or in the two wars that cmae after that event, that they cannot have a place of worship because the sacrifices and death of thier loved ones are somehow worth less than those of the christian majority, and they therefore do not deserve a mosque near the 9/11 site, while there is not only a churhc but a STRIP CLUB there as well.

Yes, technically they have the right, but as many have said it's in terribly bad taste. I don't support it. Note, I'm not saying all Muslims are bad, but if your loved ones were killed by radical Muslim extremists would you be thrilled to have a Mosque next to their memorial? No, you wouldn't, and I honestly think you'd be lying if you said otherwise. The point is is that they can build a Mosque anywhere, it does NOT have to be next to ground zero of all places, and it's ridiculous that people are so insensitive about the whole thing. I'd be mad as hell if I lost anyone during 9/11, but luckily I didn't, but that doesn't mean I don't see why people would be more than a little angry over this. I honestly don't understand what goes through the heads of people that support this, sure they have the "right", but that doesn't mean it should be done. Just because you CAN do something doesn't make it the best decision, and people need to get that in their heads. Also, there being a strip club their is irrelevent, last time I checked it wasn't group of stippers that brought down the WTC, same for the other religious buildings there.

I wonder what people would be saying if a certain group of people wanted to exercise their right by putting up a statue of a flaming cross in Harlem.

Originally Posted by Baron

I wonder what people would be saying if a certain group of people wanted to exercise their right by putting up a statue of a flaming cross in Harlem.

Exactly my point. People are such hypocrites.

I would say that anyone who wants to put up a flaming cross on their own property in Harlem gets to.

There.

I've stuck by my principles. And I am not a hypocrite.

I suppose, AO, since you are not a hypocrite either, that you support tearing down Catholic churches, including Cathedrals if necessary, where priests abused children, because continuing to worship in such places is horribly bad taste and utterly insensitive to the victims who still live nearby.

Also, if you think first amendment rights are technicalities, you're not really understanding what it means to be an American.

muslim =/= al qaeda

Originally Posted by alanmt

I would say that anyone who wants to put up a flaming cross on their own property in Harlem gets to.

There.

I've stuck by my principles. And I am not a hypocrite.

I suppose, AO, since you are not a hypocrite either, that you support tearing down Catholic churches, including Cathedrals if necessary, where priests abused children, because continuing to worship in such places is horribly bad taste and utterly insensitive to the victims who still live nearby.

Also, if you think first amendment rights are technicalities, you're not really understanding what it means to be an American.

muslim =/= al qaeda

Entirely different reasoning there. Those atrocities were committed by individuals, not a colloraborative extremeist group formed from a religion. It was a group, a collective effort by those who flew the Muslim flag. Sure, it wasn't done by your average believer, and it wasn't the religion as a whole, but it's a little bigger than a few perverted men acting individually. Not to mention the church was already there and isn't built AFTER a terrible tragedy. The acts are merely commited in the buildings that arealdy existed. A Mosque being built near a very recent attack committed by Muslim extremists is totally different, and not at all similar to your situation. I don't even get how you can compare them. They (the priests) should be expelled, but that doesn't mean a church should be wiped out. :/ And I call bullshit on your stance, it's just a lie in my eyes. I don't believe for a second you'd support such insanity, and if you did you're an extremist yourself, just one with a different bent.

You can take things too literally you know, and being an extremist for the constitution is just as bad as being an extremist against it. It's foolish. Some things are require a bit more thought than "it says this in the constitution so it should be done". I can't stand absolutists. Why limit yourself to such simplistic thinking? Why be blind to the fact that things are more complicated than "a document says this, so without exception, we must always do this"?

I see. I am a liar and an extremist and a fool and an absolutist. Okay.

But maybe you ought to think about a few things.

Absent a governmental interest to the contrary (from rational to compelling, depending upon whether a protected class's rights are circumscribed and the level of protection granted such a class), it really is that simple. Freedom of religion means freedom of religion. For people like me, who aren't officious busybodies who think they ought to tell other religions how to run their earthly operations and who aren't trying to set themselves up as the grand earthly arbiter of what people should not be doing so other people's feelings aren't hurt, the inquiry ends there. Where they put their churches are none of my business. And, as a good American, I support their right to put up a church wherever they want.

A couple notes on this, to clear up any notion that my thought processes are simplistic:

1. There is no governmental interest at stake here, whether compelling or merely rational.

a. The idea that the families of victims are rightfully offended by the mosque at this location is bunk. Pure bigotry. To the extent this is even true, their ability to think reasonably has been adversely affected by their grief, and those of us with clearer heads should step forward to make sure the right thing is done. But even if their feelings are true and legitimate, hurt feelings of a portion of the populace, even those who have lost loved ones to terrorist attack, does not legally create any governmental interest in infringing guaranteed constitutional rights. It is not the government's job to be babysitter of any group of its citizens' feelings.

b. There has been no legally proven and sufficient nexus between this proposed place of worship and criminal terrorist activity. There just hasn't. Guilt by association, especially vague, amorphous and speculative association, is still not sufficient for curtailing one's Constitutional rights in the United States.

2. I am a political conservative. Where there is any doubt as to a governmental policy, my natural inclination is toward the view or application which extends freedom, rather than restricting it.

3. Absent the above analysis, I categorically reject the idea that the Constitution doesn't apply to everyone, depending on the circumstances. It is the unpopular minority, the mean, the vicious, the undesirable, the hated who need the protection of the constitution the most. It is how we treat those who we despise that defines us as a nation. That is what the Bill of Rights is all about, sport.

4. This opposition to the mosque is ill-advised from a public policy perspective. The United States has managed to do what most European nations have not, integrate muslims into our nation in a peaceful and inclusive way in which they have bought into and accepted the American Dream and the American Way into their personal (including religious) paradigms. Why are you loud and counterproductive mosque-opposers trying to mess that up? Why are you antagonizing your fellow Americans? You are ruining the progress we have made, and no good will come of it.

5. I appreciate that 9/11 was scary and devastating and hurtful and shook our nation to the core with its vulnerability to random terror. I remember. I experienced it. But all this misplaced muslim bashing is nothing but a form of cowardice, of post traumatic stress disorder on a national scale. We're the United States. We need to man up. If our ideals are sacrificed at the first terrorist attack, then we are a nation of cowards and fools. Fortunately I (and people like me) are not going to let that happen. Whenever those of weaker resolve, who would give vent to misplaced anger out of fear, who would hurt those who have committed no crime, who would give up freedom for security and our ideals to punish those who are different, I will stand up and say no. We will not become our enemy. We will not lower our conduct to theirs. We will not sacrifice our ideals.

We win by being true to our ideals. We win by applying them fairly to everyone, even our enemies.

But the people who would go to this mosque are not our enemies. They are us. And you ought to remember that.

It doesn't matter to me one way or another if this Muslim centre gets built. For one thing, I'm not American. For another, I don't believe, from a Christian perspective, that the truth of Christ's message ever gets spread by declaring war on those who disagree with it. But that's the major difference between Christianity and fundamentalist Islam.

I do believe that in a society that boasts to be the evangelist of democracy the opinions of all should be considered, those who are for this centre and those who are against it. If people's hurts and sensitivities are not considered then that society is lacking in heart.

what if you were a muslim who lsot your fmaily in 9/11. Yes believe it or not, there are people like that. And it is not different form hanging a flaming crossi n harlem. There are many groups, many through jsutify thier actions through religion-- the christian religion in fact. No christian i know supports that. The same for muslims, they fo not support 9/11, but reficals wihtin thier religion do. Do you think burn a quran day will solve this issue. Do you think muslim bashing will solve this issue. If you do, i would go so far as to say that you are nto deserving to be called an american. Even muslims fihgt on the front lines of war FOR AMERICA. What would you say to them? "i'm sorry, but your a muslim, you don't have rights here." I know someone who lost members of their family in 9/11. They are not angry at muslims. They treat them like any other person.

Btw, baron, your comparing christianity to FUNDAMENTALIST islam, not the islam that many regualr people follow. Do you think mohammed Ali hated america? he was muslim. And if we went by people's sensitivities, the universe would be ventered around the earth and blacks would be slaves. I would be in india, and the united states of america would not be the geeatest country on the earth. and truthfully, if it continues like this, it won't be.

I want to see someone protest a church in the holy land because it offends the muslims who died in the crusades. I want to see someone protest the a visit by the pope becuase its insenctivie to those who were raped by priests. Of course its not going ot happen. Should it? absolutely not. You cannot judge a book by its cover. Didn't your mothers tell you that?

Originally Posted by alanmt

I see. I am a liar and an extremist and a fool and an absolutist. Okay.

But maybe you ought to think about a few things.

Absent a governmental interest to the contrary (from rational to compelling, depending upon whether a protected class's rights are circumscribed and the level of protection granted such a class), it really is that simple. Freedom of religion means freedom of religion. For people like me, who aren't officious busybodies who think they ought to tell other religions how to run their earthly operations and who aren't trying to set themselves up as the grand earthly arbiter of what people should not be doing so other people's feelings aren't hurt, the inquiry ends there. Where they put their churches are none of my business. And, as a good American, I support their right to put up a church wherever they want.

A couple notes on this, to clear up any notion that my thought processes are simplistic:

1. There is no governmental interest at stake here, whether compelling or merely rational.

a. The idea that the families of victims are rightfully offended by the mosque at this location is bunk. Pure bigotry. To the extent this is even true, their ability to think reasonably has been adversely affected by their grief, and those of us with clearer heads should step forward to make sure the right thing is done. But even if their feelings are true and legitimate, hurt feelings of a portion of the populace, even those who have lost loved ones to terrorist attack, does not legally create any governmental interest in infringing guaranteed constitutional rights. It is not the government's job to be babysitter of any group of its citizens' feelings.

b. There has been no legally proven and sufficient nexus between this proposed place of worship and criminal terrorist activity. There just hasn't. Guilt by association, especially vague, amorphous and speculative association, is still not sufficient for curtailing one's Constitutional rights in the United States.

2. I am a political conservative. Where there is any doubt as to a governmental policy, my natural inclination is toward the view or application which extends freedom, rather than restricting it.

3. Absent the above analysis, I categorically reject the idea that the Constitution doesn't apply to everyone, depending on the circumstances. It is the unpopular minority, the mean, the vicious, the undesirable, the hated who need the protection of the constitution the most. It is how we treat those who we despise that defines us as a nation. That is what the Bill of Rights is all about, sport.

4. This opposition to the mosque is ill-advised from a public policy perspective. The United States has managed to do what most European nations have not, integrate muslims into our nation in a peaceful and inclusive way in which they have bought into and accepted the American Dream and the American Way into their personal (including religious) paradigms. Why are you loud and counterproductive mosque-opposers trying to mess that up? Why are you antagonizing your fellow Americans? You are ruining the progress we have made, and no good will come of it.

5. I appreciate that 9/11 was scary and devastating and hurtful and shook our nation to the core with its vulnerability to random terror. I remember. I experienced it. But all this misplaced muslim bashing is nothing but a form of cowardice, of post traumatic stress disorder on a national scale. We're the United States. We need to man up. If our ideals are sacrificed at the first terrorist attack, then we are a nation of cowards and fools. Fortunately I (and people like me) are not going to let that happen. Whenever those of weaker resolve, who would give vent to misplaced anger out of fear, who would hurt those who have committed no crime, who would give up freedom for security and our ideals to punish those who are different, I will stand up and say no. We will not become our enemy. We will not lower our conduct to theirs. We will not sacrifice our ideals.

We win by being true to our ideals. We win by applying them fairly to everyone, even our enemies.

But the people who would go to this mosque are not our enemies. They are us. And you ought to remember that.

at least you're sane. When the world sees america as intolerant and only 'fair' when it suits thier purposes, it will fade into the pages of history. OYu think i'm wrong...look at rome, look at every other fallen empire, every other great nation. Everyone on this forums is going to say stuff like this. I know it. The majority tends to not think as clearly as the minority. Its how humans work. Call me a terrorist...call me an extremist...call me crazy...call me inhuman. I dont care. I stand by what i say becuase i KNOW that the otherwise is hypocritical.

It's a bit like erecting a statue of Einstein in downtown Nagasaki, pretty shocking in my opinion. Build a million mosques for all I care, but a place you do not build one, is near to where a major terrorist attack occurred.

Fair enough, it isn't like the people who'll be attending had anything to do with it (I hope) but who cares? It symbolizes a religion that some people took too far, decided to fly a plane into some buildings a few hundred feet away and spill innocent blood. Not cool, because that is one thing I'm sure people will be trying to forget.

How the hell will building a mosque help tormented love ones, and the general public heal? Let's forget about religion all together now, what happened to common decency? If it gets built it gets built, but it's just another thing to get used to, barely a decade after the event.

Why don't they have something dedicated to the lives lost on 9/11 in the centre? A monument or something, that might make it much more worth while if they acknowledge and commemorate it.

The bottom line is threefold:

1. The Bill of Rights exists, in part, to defend the liberty of the minority against the tyranny of the majority. This is indisputably a core element of the spirit of the first ten amendments, and I personally find the idea both beautiful and elegant (when, of course, it is actually applied). "Sensibility" (or "heart") does not, and should not, enter the picture, for the same reason that law does not necessarily reflect what is or is not just. The result of trying to protect one group or individuals sensibilities is exceptionalism, and the inevitable result of exceptionalism is that somewhere, at some time, somebody's rights are going to be ignored, thus corroding what were previously universally applicable rights under the law. That's why I have no problem with burning a cross in Harlem, or holding a Neo-Nazi march in downtown Skokie, or crapping on the American flag. Those expressions may be contextually reprehensible, but in practice they are no more or less symbolic than popular expressions supporting more benign causes.

2. Allowing the Center to be built near the site will demonstrate to the world that our ideals, when they are consulted in practice, are not simply words on a page.

3. If fear and resentment are allowed to dictate popular sentiment and/or political policy, then, by definition, that society has become a casualty of "terror" (in a general sense); continuing to act on those feelings (I picture a man thrashing around in a pool of his own blood) only make the wounds bleed more (I picture warrentless searches, surveillance, a vaguely defined, broadly applicable "terrorist" enemy, and popular willingness to accept and embrace the shrill slander of increasingly vocal xenophobes).

Originally Posted by Lamperoux

If these politicians that are hell-bent upon not allowing this community center to stand are really true to what they say, i want them to do one hting. I want them to stand in front of the american people, and tell every muslim american that has had a son, father, daughter, mother, brother, or sister die in 9/11 or in the two wars that cmae after that event, that they cannot have a place of worship because the sacrifices and death of thier loved ones are somehow worth less than those of the christian majority, and they therefore do not deserve a mosque near the 9/11 site, while there is not only a churhc but a STRIP CLUB there as well.

Bravo to that. You can't string up an entire religion in retaliation to the radical actions of a few.

Bruno, The helaing process includes oversoming this phobia that muslims are evil .I have family memebrs who are muslim. they aren't terrorists, they aren't evil. As time goes on with no action, hate for muslims will grow. It was a silent affair till this happened. Then we saw just hte extent that our hatre of muslims has gone. Its sickening. Have we not seen that hate gets us nowhere. does not jesus christ preahc exactly the opposite of what these pasotrs are saying, calling this an act of evil. I'm an aethiest, i don't beleive in God. But if you want to call the human race, God's chosen race, then why do we show such hate. Be true to the values you are trying to uphold. Hyposcrisy has brought down every great nation, and it will bring down this one if we dont act.
it sickens me to the deepst level for people in this forum to not understand the evils in this situation. We are giving into terrorrism. We are lettign them when, we are letting them TERRORRIZE our minds and psyche. They are called terrorrists for a reason. Islam worships the same god as the christians and jews. YOu are all of the string, in different forms. Compassion is a thing that only humans have been shown to use in the most amazing ways. Animals do not show charity or acceptance, but humans do. We can accept all as human beings. We care for people. We can do things that no other creature on earth can do. I won't say that we're divine, but i na tell you that this compassion and charity is there for a reason. Now we have to use it to show acceptance of muslims and others.

if this were a churhc being built, it would have been a different story. The family of the victims of 9/11 must realize that Imam Feisal Rauf (man in charge of the to be built mosque) did not kill thier fmaily members. It was a a group of extremists. There are radicals i nevery religion. Look to the pastor wanting to burn Qurans. Lets be beyond this, lets show that we are more than mindless creatures like everyhting else on earth. Lets show that we are human.

if we don't build this mosque, if we move it, or say no to it, this is the message we send. "This is america, the land of hypocrisy. where we serve our own needs, the meeds of the majority. We do not stand for equality for all, that's just poetry on paper."
if we do this. if we build this mosque, we send a storng message to the world. We say "we are the united states of america, home of the brave. We show our values, our strengths in even the most trying of situations .We show understanding, we show thatwe look beyond the face of an issue, that we are the land of equality. We show we truly are the greatest nation in the World."

what message do you want to send? People can look at his moment and history and say "wow, thier bravery and dedication to thier words holding over centuries. " or say "what a sad tale".

do we want to be a christian version of Saudi Arabia? DO we want ot be a discrinamte group. I lived in Saudi Arabia, and never once did i get otgo to churhc there, because they are rarley built thanks ot the muslim majority.