Thread: Vegetarianism and Human Nature

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Ima not eating pills. I'd rather photosynthesize.

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Would just need more surface area and a greater absorption rate. Easy enough to accomplish. Think about how activated charcoal works. Something like that as either a dermal layer or a symbiote would do the trick.
That or huge mylar wings.

The conditions under which we raise and process animals for meat are disgusting, unsanitary, cruel and bad for the environment. I'm rethinking the whole thing -- looking for alternative sources for meat and I'm willing to incur the extra cost. It's quite possible to get adequate protein without eating meat, and I'm not ruling that out, as much as I like to eat it.

We tried a vegetarian diet once, but I think we went about it the wrong way and I was doing it primarily because my wife wanted to do it. I just went along without really considering the reasons behind it.

bread/toast and oats form the largest part of my diet, although I do eat things like eggs, ham, etc. You don't need anywhere near the amount of protein people say you do. About 20-30 grams a day, for the average person, is about right. The one gram per kilogram of weight rule is complete rubbish, you don't need that unless you're a bodybuilder or if you're a female and pregnant. There is really no evidence that eating meat made early humans develope a larger cranial capacity. That's pop science. Any changes that produced our neo cortex would have to have been so remarkably improbable genetically that it's amazing to even contemplate how or why this was able to happen. We have no idea how this can happen currently, so I wouldn't offer an argument for meat-eating based on such a speculative "science".

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I used to get into this sort of debate when I was studying theology. Being Seventh Day Adventist at the time, they're really keen on vegetarian diets and all that, claiming that's man's natural state. They're also keen on creationism as opposed to evolution. So I'd lay it on the line:

Look at the canines set in our teeth, the exclusive providence of carnivores and omnivores. So... Either we evolved them so that we could eat meat, OR we started out as meat-eating animals. Take your pick, you can't have both.

I was not well-loved as a theology student.

Originally Posted by caelum

So you're saying we need to eat like crazy and blow up like Fat Bastard and then lose all of our weight so we have huge excesses of flabby skin? That would at least save bills on things like blankets, because at night, I'd just have to reach over my shoulder and grab a tent of skin. That wing idea sound interesting.




Interesting factoid: Apparently we lost our fur 600 000 years ago.

Possibly. There's no proof of that timing. And no, I'm not saying that at all. I'm guessing you don't know what activated charcoal is, or how it works. What would be needed would be thicker and more porous skin for greater surface area, not layers and layers of flab. The area comes from the pores.
The human thermoregulation system already works by that principle, as does the bladder. Spongiform.

I've been a vegetarian since 1973. No dietary problems whatever.

Eventually, all food will just be pills, anyway

You may be kidding, but in case you're not: this was a common science-fictional theme in the Forties through the early Fifties. It was debunked long ago. The problem is that, in addition to nutritional intake, your digestive system requires plenty of fiber and liquid to operate. You just don't get those from a fistful of pills.

Plus, we like to eat food. We like to taste food.

I think that our omnivorousness is part of our adaptability which is part of why we survived to develop intelligence and thrive.

To my mind, the only moral issue relating to eating meat has to do with livestock and poultry treatment. It should be better. I prefer to buy 4-H or range beef and free range chicken, although that is not always possible. When I hunted more regularly, I ate a lot of wild game.

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I think it depends on the individual, Some bodies need more protein than others perhaps... or maybe it's just a bad habit...

I think that the we need meat position is enforced by the fact that most people who think that are from Western cultures. Take India, most of those people there are all vegetarian, and by your assumption most of those people should be deficient by diet alone. I admit, there are starving people in India, but that is not for want of meat. We have been raised to think that eating meat with every meal is natural and necessary. But our western diet is not at all sustainable if everyone in the world ate like that.

Sure the first invention could have been a spear, I am not objecting that, but what did humans do before we invented the spear? We didn't starve, we picked with our fingers, we foraged and we survived on mostly a vegetarian diet. With some occasional meat.

In a hunter gatherer society, of like twenty people, let us say at best half of them are men, none of them were mauled by a mountain lion yet. The men go out and hunt, and the women stayed back and picked berries. Day one, the men come back, not so successful, so they have the berries the women picked, day two, Carl fell and broke his ankle, the men are down one man. Day three: Success! they get a boar and they divide it up and they eat meat few days before it goes back or the cure it and save it so that it last longer. But still he fall back meal was always the vegetarian one. It is not guaranteed that they will have meat everyday, at every meal.

I personally think it is a bit unnatural to have meat everyday at every meal. I can go weeks without eating meat without even making a conscious decision to do so. I eat chicken mostly, I don't like eating beef because I feel like crap when I eat it, not because I am mourning the animal, I really don't care, because I physically feel like crap. And I think that feeling people think that it is normal. I only noticed the difference when I went on this raw diet eating only non cooked things, salads, fruits, nuts, juice, and then when I went back I realized that overall bleh feeling coincided when I ate meat too much.

I said too much I am not saying don't eat meat, but I think it is a bit too much at times. In the west we act like we know the best way to eat and it mostly coincides with how we eat. We tell people the best way to get strong bones is to drink milk despite the fact that countries that don't have milk or cheese as a part of their regular diet have significantly lower rates of osteoporosis. I am thinking of Japan specifically when I said that.

I do recognize that every body has its own specific needs, but just basing the idea of what the body needs on culturally established ideas on what a meal needs to be, it needs to be re-thought.

Believe it or not meat is not the only way to get protein or iron. Nuts and leafy greens provide all of that, plus it is more sustainable, the body digests it quicker, it cleans out your system. And you can gore yourself and still move. I can eat three pounds of lettuce and go for a run, but a piece of meat the size of my palm, which isn't big, and I need to go to sleep. Meat takes a lot more energy to digest, and it takes a lot more energy to raise.

In the end, I am just sick of my parents complaining that I don't eat meat. "Have a hamburger, eat this pork chop, have sausage." They act like I am a freak because I don't find it delectable and that I feel better without it. My friend from India gets the exact opposite talk though, "Why are you eating meat so much!" She allows herself chicken twice a week, and she is more of a carnivore than I am.

I think the evidence is pretty clear that we are biologically equipped to eat both meat and vegetarian. There is a terrific book called Diet for a New America, written by John Robbins (actually an heir to the Baskin Robbins ice cream fortune) some years ago. It makes a compelling case for vegetarianism or a vastly reduced use of meat. Our digestive tract, for one thing, is looong, while those of carnivores tend to be short and wide. Result? Way fewer bowel cancers in cultures that eat little or no meat. Then there is the horrifying treatment of livestock and poultry in modern 'factory farming', and the disgusting array of hormones and antibiotics that these products can be laced with.

I'm inclined to think that meat in our evolutionary past was kind of a treat, consumed at feast times or when the tribe got lucky in the hunt. This might be the reason it seems to have an addictive quality. The 'needed' daily quantity (and one can be perfectly healthy without eating meat) is about the size of a deck of playing cards. The gross over consumption of meat (and sugar) has alot to do with the epidemic of obesity we currently see in 'Americanized' cultures.

The bottom line is the information on food choices is readily available. We can choose wisely on a daily basis and increase the odds for a long, healthy life or be mindless, bloated consumers.