Thread: Everybody Draw Mohammad Day - offensive or justified?

Originally Posted by The Backward OX

Yes he probably is. I read somewhere that the Archbish of Canterbury plus some British politico or other, whose name escapes me, have been giving serious thought to the issue.

The Archbishop of Canterbury and Gordon Brown, the former Prime Minister, both voiced support for the official recognition of Shariah law within the Islamic community and supported its practice in areas of high Muslim concentration. This is already in effect in some towns and some areas of London.

Gordon Brown also courted the Islamic hierarchy because he wanted to see the City of London become the centre of Arab banking.

In principal, I have no objection to a religion observing its own laws among its own people. Two objections come to mind, for me, when it comes to the actual outworking. One is the extremes of the outworking of Shariah law in Muslim countries, where a woman who gets raped is regarded as the guilty party (just one example). The other is the objection from the politically correct brigade, who support the Muslim position, to Christians being able to practice their own strictures.

Originally Posted by Olly Buckle
Better he goes to find the facts in an attempt to repudiate me and discovers the truth for himself than I quote figures at him he rejects.

You're not just a pretty face.

Originally Posted by Baron

The Archbishop of Canterbury and Gordon Brown, the former Prime Minister, both voiced support for the official recognition of Shariah law within the Islamic community and supported its practice in areas of high Muslim concentration. This is already in effect in some towns and some areas of London.

Gordon Brown also courted the Islamic hierarchy because he wanted to see the City of London become the centre of Arab banking.

Them applying their own law among themselves is one thing, it does not replace British law, they do not have licence to break British law and would still find themselves in a British court for a criminal offence.

What the Archbishop discusses is neither here nor there really when hardly anyone goes to church anymore and the majority are not even believers.

Originally Posted by Olly Buckle

Them applying their own law among themselves is one thing, it does not replace British law, they do not have licence to break British law and would still find themselves in a British court for a criminal offence.

What the Archbishop discusses is neither here nor there really when hardly anyone goes to church anymore and the majority are not even believers.

I stated nothing in my post to suggest anything other than what you're saying so I don't really see that you're making any point. As far as Church attendance goes, most people who don't attend Church probably believe as you do and those who don't practice their faith and get involved might agree with you. It's the remainder who really matter.

Originally Posted by lin

I am not affording anybody any separateness or anything else. I have no idea how you interpreted that from what I said, but it doesn't make any sense whatsoever. But I've seen that before.

I wonder how intellectually honest you're being now. You made an explicit reference to something affecting the Muslim population and not affecting me.

Originally Posted by Olly Buckle

Rubbish, what do you call very large? What % of the british population do you think are even nominally Muslim, never mind the % that are fanatical or extremist.

Olly, this is the problem I have with many when it comes to this subject. On the one hand you say draw Muhammad day is a good thing, which is a tacit admission there is some problem with fundamental Islam. I argue to say, draw Muhammad day does nothing to actually address those problems and you resort to: "there aren't that many fanatics anyway".

Originally Posted by Olly Buckle

Better he goes to find the facts in an attempt to repudiate me and discovers the truth for himself than I quote figures at him he rejects.

I don't know what figures you think I'd reject. I can't see how this doesn't obfuscate the point.

I wonder how intellectually honest you're being now. You made anexplicit reference to something affecting the Muslim population and notaffecting me.

Well, yeah.... because Muslim law affects the Muslim population. Are you a Muslim? That would kind of make a difference.

If you ARE a Muslim and object to Islamic law, I'd suggest that it's your own problem. If you're NOT, which is what I assumed, then yeah... it doesn't affect you. Duh.

It's kind of funny seeing you bubble up with this "affording" and "intellectual honesty" bullshit out of your own fantasies, but it doesn't really help anybody or further anything.

Originally Posted by lin

Well, yeah.... because Muslim law affects the Muslim population. Are you a Muslim? That would kind of make a difference.

If you ARE a Muslim and object to Islamic law, I'd suggest that it's your own problem. If you're NOT, which is what I assumed, then yeah... it doesn't affect you. Duh.

It's kind of funny seeing you bubble up with this "affording" and "intellectual honesty" bullshit out of your own fantasies, but it doesn't really help anybody or further anything.

Oooohhhh. . A real discussion over what it is Muslims believe (according to their Qur'an and Hadith) and how they would apply Sharia Law in their own constituencies here in the UK (and the broader implications of Sharia Law in the west) is far less important than draw Mohammad day. You sound like you've got all your pegs in the ground. We need more revolutionaries like you. Did you take part in draw Mohammad day, by the way? Make sure you do next year; I could swear it's the most effective way of challenging Muslims in their own beliefs. Good luck negotiating your way around the fence.

Get the crayons out Lin.

So, since you use the word "they", I'll assume you are NOT a Muslim. Therefore there is no way Sharia law could apply to you unless you are stupid enough to move to a theocratic Arab country (certainly a possibility, I'd say).

So you are piddling your panties over this whole thing about being subject to these laws, when in fact there is no such danger to you.

Meanwhile, there IS danger in writing of drawing about Islam. People have been killed. That's what this thread is about. Not your hallucinations.

Originally Posted by lin

So, since you use the word "they", I'll assume you are NOT a Muslim. Therefore there is no way Sharia law could apply to you unless you are stupid enough to move to a theocratic Arab country (certainly a possibility, I'd say).

So you are piddling your panties over this whole thing about being subject to these laws, when in fact there is no such danger to you.

Meanwhile, there IS danger in writing of drawing about Islam. People have been killed. That's what this thread is about. Not your hallucinations.

Spare me the usual rhetoric, Lin. You've managed to miss the point of my posts each time you've replied.

Gee, I wonder why that is. What's important is that you keep missing the butterfly nets. Good luck with that.

Let's not get personal, folks, okay? Please stick to the OP and not each other.

Thanks muchly.

First off, to answer the question of 'what will they do when 500,000 people stand up and voice their freedom of speech? They can't kill us all!"

They don't have to kill you all, just you, or the first one to step forward and organize such events. Or even just killing randoms indicating their participation is why they are now dead.

I can assure you there are significantly more fundamentalist Muslims dedicated to killing infidels than there are people willing to die organizing facebook pages protesting their position.

I think demonstrating free speech is great. I think using free speech as a weapon to ridicule others just for the sake of ridicule is never a good idea. There are many moderate Muslims that are equally offended, and we do nothing to keep them open to dialogue when we offend them.

The road to peace is through dialogue, and this sort of act is a conversation ender.

Originally Posted by Baron

I stated nothing in my post to suggest anything other than what you're saying so I don't really see that you're making any point.

Sorry, it was the bit about the Archbishop that got me quoting you. I was referring more to Mermaid's post in my first paragraph, when he said

For instance, why should we have one set of laws for one set of people and another set of laws for another in the same country? Those are, in my opinion, sufficient grounds for protest. I don't think a Muslim man should be allowed to tie his wife to his bed and beat her here in this country. I don't think a woman's testimony should be less than that of the man who has inflicted harm upon her here in this country. I don't think adulterers should be flogged in public (nor in private). It doesn't require a long list in order to make the point.

There are not different laws for each population, I agree that would be intolerable. Believers may choose to accept the rulings of a Sharia court in civil cases, but surely they would still be subject to British law within the jurisdiction of a British court if they commit criminal acts. The law is not about to give up its right to try people for things such as rape, tying people up would remain false imprisonment and beating and flogging would still be an assault. I don't think anyone is being offered immunity from the law.

Olly, this is the problem I have with many when it comes to this subject. On the one hand you say draw Muhammad day is a good thing, which is a tacit admission there is some problem with fundamental Islam. I argue to say, draw Muhammad day does nothing to actually address those problems and you resort to: "there aren't that many fanatics anyway".

The problem I have with fundamental Islam is not really all that different from the problem I have with any religion, I find them all deeply flawed and extremely ridiculous, that's why I find it a fun idea to ridicule religion, any religion, Islam simply happens to be the one under discussion.

Originally Posted by Olly Buckle

The problem I have with fundamental Islam is not really all that different from the problem I have with any religion, I find them all deeply flawed and extremely ridiculous, that's why I find it a fun idea to ridicule religion, any religion, Islam simply happens to be the one under discussion.

Well, I am sure you don't find the teachings of Christ ridiculous and, by the way, you couldn't have two more different prophets (I don't think Muhammad is a true prophet), than Jesus and Muhammad. What you find ridiculous is the idea that there is a God, right? However, we're not arguing whether there is a God, rather what being a Muslim entails and the implications of that on free speech, etc. You can't treat these religions in the same way.