Thread: Jordan vs Ali: The Battle for The Greatest Athlete of The 20th Century

I'm seven foot tall like the other players and good at plopping the ball through a net eight feet off the ground. So bloody what?

How annoying. Criticizing a sport -- and you don't know a damned thing about it. Soccer is just kicking a ball into goal, hockey the same, only a with stick and puck. Baseball is just hitting a ball with a stick, golf just hitting a ball into a hole etc. etc. etc. My grandmother says the same kind of thing.

Guess who?

Blood, that's Jack Johnson. Who knew that in addition to writing and playing catchy pop songs, he could box?

Originally Posted by JosephB

Blood, that's Jack Johnson. Who knew that in addition to writing and playing catchy pop songs, he could box?

Damn! Thought that was Pele, JB! He looks like Pele.

Anybody think that Kobe deserves to be in the top ten NBA players of all time? I do.

Damn! Thought that was Pele, JB! He looks like Pele.

I'm not a big boxing fan, I just happened to catch the Ken Burns produced documentary about him.

I think asking non-sports fans might actually be a better idea than asking 'experts'. Experts argue a lot and might have statistics, but the barometer of a person's talent and influence is best judged by all those who know a name and little else or became intrigued because of said person's influence.

I've heard of Pele, and for an American non-soccer fan, that's a measure of the man's talent.

I've heard of several boxers (including all those listed) but the ones who stand out most to me are Sugar Ray, Ali and Tyson. Everyone knows Ali's catch phrase and everyone knows something about Tyson (above and beyond his incongruous voice).

I used to know more about golf, but in recent years, Tiger's dominated. considering my extreme lack of enthusiasm for golf, even knowing his name is a big deal.

I used to keep up with basketball a lot more, but I'd still give a hands down to Jordan. No one can beat him on or off the court in terms of mastery of that sport and sheer cultural influence. To that effect, I'd give it to him over Ali.

However, 'best' athlete should be different than 'most influential'. "Best" athlete is impossible, so 'most influential' actually makes a better debate.

Originally Posted by JosephB

Babe Ruth was a very good pitcher at one point, when he was in Boston, maybe a Hall of Fame candidate.

I think greatest athlete also includes impact on the sport and culture. That leaves Jordan, Tiger or Ali, I think. Not Bruce Lee, who was known for his movies or some weightlifter no one's heard of.

I'm out, as Jim Rome says.

Well some in the martial arts community would disagree with you. I'm not in the thread to debate whether Bruce should be regarded as an athlete or not. Though I found the idea of distinguishing him in his martial arts career as an athlete versus an esoteric Shaolin, Buddhist, monk (for all of us that remember "Black Belt Theater" ) a very interesting idea. Up until that time I had never thought about think of a martial arts and actor like Bruce in such a way.

Either way, one thing is certain, Bruce Lee's JKD Philosophy predates MMA or Mixed Martial Arts (which is now the sport of blended styles of combat - and not style against style per se). So, while Frank Shamrock is credited with actually bringing blended styles to the sport of No Holds Barred fighting, or that is to say creating MMA, it is believed by many that Bruce Lee was the first to really impact martial arts with a systematic philosophy of adapting and blending styles versus being strict to tradition and placing the dogma of style first and foremost.

Originally Posted by Malone

I've actually heard of that weightlifter. I used to watch the Strongest Man competition all the time.

Martial Arts is definitely a sport. Especially since tons of people compete at it. I took one lesson when I was a kid, found out we didn't just get to fight each other and act like the Karate Kid, and quit.

I'm pleased to say he's from Wisconsin. Bill K. is a legend in power lifting and strongman competitions. At one time he was regarded as the strongest man on earth.

Most people in the United States (I'm not sure about outside the U.S.) that are hardcore into weightlifting (bodybuilders, power lifters etc) idealize him similar to the way boxing fans idealize the great boxers of the past.

One thing I like about Bill K. is that his physique is awesome. And if you have ever seen some of the fat a** power lifters and modern strongmen you know what I'm talking about. :lo:


Bill Kazmaier - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bill Kazmaier (born December 30, 1953 in Burlington, Wisconsin) is a former powerlifter strongman and pro wrestler from the United States. Kazmaier played football at the University of Wisconsin-Madison from 1973-1974 before leaving school to pursue powerlifting full-time.

Bill Kazmaier Statistics Ring name(s) Bill Kazmaier Billed height 6 ft 3 in (1.91 m) Billed weight 350 lb (160 kg) Born December 30, 1953 (1953-12-30) (age 54) Resides Wisconsin Debut 1990

In 1981, Kazmaier became the first person to bench 300kg...

Originally Posted by seigfried007

I used to keep up with basketball a lot more, but I'd still give a hands down to Jordan. No one can beat him on or off the court in terms of mastery of that sport and sheer cultural influence. To that effect, I'd give it to him over Ali.

However, 'best' athlete should be different than 'most influential'. "Best" athlete is impossible, so 'most influential' actually makes a better debate.

I would have thought you can say best as in huge dominance over their peers.I noticed on a previous post one or two gap years in MJ's acheivements and I know Ali lost a few times. So they're obviously not the best. Though you could say they were the best in their sports at certain periods. But so was Sergei Bubka, Michael Phelps (who?), Linford Christie, Seb Coe, Jonathon Redgrave (rowing) and a thousand others. I think Sam should write out a list of HIS requirements for this accolade. Longevity, invincibility, gongs, entertainment value (for that, strike off Redgrave, Bubka and Phelps), american-ness (strike off Christie and Coe), whiteness (we've lost Phelps again and...Oops, we're left with MJ and Ali!)

Soccer is just kicking a ball into goal,

Soccer is the dumbest sport ever. One of the main evolutionary advantages of primates is having hands, so they make up a sport where you can't use them.

And end up with the only ball game that could just as easily be played by donkeys or cows.

Originally Posted by Blood

I nominate this guy!

Guess who?

I read his biography.

Jack Johnson's first two biographies were actually written in French because he was an heroic and loved figure in France whilst some some Southern folks said they were going to lynch him if he ever came back down South. This was in response to him dating openly, two white women, both of whom were from Milwaukee, and both of whom were supposedly involved in prostitution. It's also because Jack Johnson was confident, arrogant, and boastful before white audiences and white prize fighters.

You should read a recent novel on former prize fighter Stanley Ketchel. Very interesting. If I remember correctly he was a middle weight and fought Jack Johnson.

For all the hoopla on the WWII Generation as "The Greatest Generation," that generation didn't have jack! on what that earlier generation had to pull, rip, and tear through to get a piece of the American apple pie. The WWI Generation lived through not just a Great War (which went in using old tactics against the new technology of machine guns) that used chemical warfare, but they lived through the transformation of Cowboys and the old gun slingers of the West to the automobile and the birth of the Tommy Gun gangster and a new era of law men. That generation fought their way through the depression too. I believe that generations homicide rates was similar to Generation X and the younger generations of today too.

I digress though.

Originally Posted by spider8

I would have thought you can say best as in huge dominance over their peers.I noticed on a previous post one or two gap years in MJ's acheivements and I know Ali lost a few times. So they're obviously not the best. Though you could say they were the best in their sports at certain periods. But so was Sergei Bubka, Michael Phelps (who?), Linford Christie, Seb Coe, Jonathon Redgrave (rowing) and a thousand others. I think Sam should write out a list of HIS requirements for this accolade. Longevity, invincibility, gongs, entertainment value (for that, strike off Redgrave, Bubka and Phelps), american-ness (strike off Christie and Coe), whiteness (we've lost Phelps again and...Oops, we're left with MJ and Ali!)

Jordan retired twice from Basketball. That's why there are gap years. It pays to know what you're talking about.

Originally Posted by lin

Soccer is the dumbest sport ever. One of the main evolutionary advantages of primates is having hands, so they make up a sport where you can't use them.

And end up with the only ball game that could just as easily be played by donkeys or cows.

Very close. Our footballers are known to be dumb and their WAGs (that's wives and girlfriends to you non-englanders) are even dumber. But you forgot Bedknobs and Broomsticks; a movie where an animal uses a prehensile tail to bounce the ball like a Basketball while playing a football match. What does this tell you?

Originally Posted by lin

Soccer is the dumbest sport ever. One of the main evolutionary advantages of primates is having hands, so they make up a sport where you can't use them.

.

Perhaps as dumb as america calling a sport you play with your hands 'football'.

Originally Posted by Sam Winchester

Jordan retired twice from Basketball. That's why there are gap years. It pays to know what you're talking about.

I agree I don't know much about basketball but that's part of my point: Who gives a £^$%&^* about it outside the good old US of A? Sorry Sam, but your thread is rooted in favoritism for your own likes/dislikes. Fine, but perhaps you should ask who is the best in accordance with your ideals. Which means you have to list your ideals.

Jordan retired twice from Basketball. That's why there are gap years. It pays to know what you're talking about.

Sam, when I was a kid, my dad did business in Birmingham, Alabama and took me to see Jordan play AA minor league baseball, during his "retirement." This is when he signed with the White Sox org. in hopes of playing major league baseball.

He hit a double that night and got one run. Pretty fucking impressive to step into a professional sport, even at that level and do a half-way credible job. Shows you what an amazing athlete he was.

Originally Posted by JosephB

He hit a double that night and got one run. Pretty fucking impressive to step into a professional sport, even at that level and do a half-way credible job. Shows you what an amazing athlete he was.

Maradonna would have hit a treble and got two runs.
Athlete? Hitting a run at baseball? Are you mad? In the uk we call it rounders and it's played by children. Basketball is called netball and it's played by women (no offence to women and children).