lin

Actual writing, not a bunch of lame "ideas".

Again, I think you're lying. I don't think you've ever finished a book in your life.

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*Angel

lol i kind of glazed over after finishing the opening post. i'm only 19 and i've heard rants like that hundreds of times from lazy students who said teachers were out to get them.

if what your saying is true, why not start up your own company. From what you say sounds like you got a lot of people in the same boat as you. A lot of people you could profit from, that is... if their work actually sells.

American industry is greedy, if something is actually going to make them money and not get them negatives comments, they will accept it.



Don't complain, act...



or start a blog.

Xenophile

Bud, dude, I have your answer: Hard to find, controversial, unusual books. They publish all kinds of fringe literature. I am sure you would fit right in.

As far as your litany of complaints and your "proof" of the Vast Conspiracy of the Publishing Industry, you cite one young editor who was put on the spot and may have frozen up during public speaking, and you claim, mistakenly, that "all" the publishing houses in the '80s charged reading fees. The only company I know of that did that is the Scott Meredith Literary Agency -- an agenting company, not a publisher. I know that because I worked there as a new-minted college grad. It was sort of scammy, I admit. It wasn't the usual way things are done for agents or publishers.

I have so many friends who have published novels or nonfiction books. They all share one important character trait: HUMILITY. It's the root of their perseverance, their willingness to accept editing, and their interest in other human beings -- you know, that empathy that lets a writer infuse their characters with life? That's why they are published. None of these folks have relatives in the biz. They don't even live in New York! They're not even MFA graduates! They give me hope. I tell you what, I couldn't live with a chip on my shoulder as big as the one you've got. I'd get my ass to a counselor and try to get over being so bitter. Life is too short!

Bud Wiser

Look, I really don't care what you think. My experience is based on reality, and I've seen nothing in these responses which contradict it. Interesting, though, how you've gone from such an expounder of free and controversial thought to dismissing replies to your challenge as "flaky." This is the kind of intellectual dishonesty I've come to expect in this thread, and on a par with the attitudes in general "out there."

Interesting, too, in that I'm accused of mercenary cupidity in seeking MONEY! Wow, you mean I'm the only one here thinking creative effort should receive some sort of remuneration? Everyone else in the writing game is foregoing all such reward - even you, after your ideological rant in praise of the market and its bottom line? Tell you what, I'll even forego copyrighting my stuff if you and all the above do the same. No, even better - I'll demand that any publisher donate any said profits from my works to my chosen charities and keep not a cent for himself. That way NO ONE gets corrupted by filthy MONEY, which I'm sure is beyond you at the height of your commercial success, having held other peoples' hotly controversial scripts in your own unmittened hands, spelled out at length for our due impression.

But actually, this advice of self-publishing only underscores my point on the totalitarian nature of the "official press." After all, self-publishing was widely popular in the old USSR, too: it was called samizdat, literally "self-circulation." Not that it's a bad idea (I've thought of dedicating a website to one book, even though I'd not see any hard currency - MONEY - out of it) but to have to go that route only proves that there is no open door for all comers who "act," "make the effort," "do their best."

I know you folks would certainly like to believe I'm lying, lazy, can't put two sentences together correctly with a flashlight and a roadmap, etc. You need to in order to save your own illusions. Of course, I'll continue playing the game. I have a work I'm marketing - er, submitting - right now. I'll continue the upbeat buck-and-shuffle for the next round of agents, knowing privately and full well I'm going to get that form rejection which strongly implies not even the query was read, let alone the submission. And should that work ever see the light of day, I'll retract publicly what I've said here. See - you win either way, and I lose at least something either way. That's the kind of odds the pub biz dishes out.

JosephB

Reminds me of a certain character in Running with Scissors.

__________________
"The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."
-- Albert Einstein

"I am really only interested in a fiction of miracles."
-- Flannery O'Connor

Bud Wiser

Yes, and let me relax into some Buddhist/drug-induced freeflow beyond the market, like Shawn - damn! I'm pert-near there already! Only I've just got enough contact left with reality to know there's something wrong in this. Maybe if I've got what Shawn has (why, philiosophy - what did you think meant? - - ) I can ease back on my floor-mattress and chill with the groove.

Publishers are not only free to chose what to print, but what not to print, and exercise the latter much, much more than the former; and too often for reasons that have nothing to do with the values of "a free press in a free society." I guess such ideological fanaticism on my part shows not only my Commie inclinations, but my unmellow struggle against the Greater Zen.

valeca

I thought the question worth asking a second time. I'm genuinely interested in the answer(s).

__________________
You know you wanna.

JosephB

The book industry has become a very fractured and tiered place. Consolidations have created several super publishers that need big returns, so it is a lot harder for new authors to get published.

Somewhere in the middle, between self-publishing and the big guys is a dying breed of small publishing houses. They have limited budgets, and very high standards. So it's tough to break through with them, unless you are very good.

It's a shame, but there are free market conditions that drive all this. It's not a conspiracy. It is a need to be profitable. No kidding. And it has nothing to do with "freedom." You could argue that it is because of freedom.

All creative industries have evolved and changed. The big movie studios were forced to acknowledge independent film makers. The record companies are having to rethink their model based on downloading and home and small studio production. Every thing is changing based on a free market and changing technology. Publishing is no exception.

So it's harder to get published. Boo hoo. New authors do get published. I choose to spend my time and energy on writing, not whining about how hard it is.

Just what is your solution?

And please, honor us by posting a some of your "controversial" writing. Let us all see how brilliant your writing is, so that we may commiserate.
No shit?

__________________
"The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."
-- Albert Einstein

"I am really only interested in a fiction of miracles."
-- Flannery O'Connor

MSWordUp

I don't know about you guys but I think the OP is making a lot of really good points. Really, really good. Really, really, really, really good.

Xenophile

OK, let's say Bud really does have a point and it's almost impossible to get published by Simon & Schuster, Random House, St. Martin's, etc. (I think they're all, or mostly, owned by some big German conglomerate whose name escapes me anyway, which doesn't make it a conspiracy by the way). If it really is that difficult, then we writers will adapt, just like our buddies the musicians are doing. Hunter S. Thompson said, "The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs." Yep. It is. That's why there are so many indie labels now, and even those with home studios who put out their own CDs or MP3s. That's why I've discovered a lot of great musicians on MySpace who aren't famous, but are making a decent (admittedly not much more than that) living with a DIY approach. There used to be a terrible stigma about self-publishing; that only writers not good enough to be with a major house resorted to it. That probably was truer in the past. Now, the stigma is changing with POD sites and such. People are actually choosing that type of creative control rather than handing their MS over to an editor and waiting for the book to come out while the agent, editor, and other pub pros take their cut. Younger writers coming up in the era of indie music just think the old stigma is confusing. Those of us who remember when self-publishing meant boxes of books from a vanity press in the author's garage, replete with typos, have to change with the times.

And those who encourage Bud to post are right. Do it! And don't forget what I said about Loompanics and the shrink!

*Angel

personally i don't believe the OP has any credible work to speak of, he probably just came here to justify his "conspiracy" and see if others shared his views. if you look his only posts out of this thread are in his own introduction.

perhaps the OP would feel more comfortable here

just please stop saying you "expected" all these responses. if you expected them why post? If you don't care what others think, why defend your thoughts?

and if you seriously thought your rant would educate and pop bubbles, than above link is really for you.

but hey theres an easy way to prove us all wrong, and it's been suggested over and over again. yet you seem to avoid it every time it's brought up.
and that simple thing that would shut everyone up is...



a snippet of your work.

le gasp!!! a group of doubters asking for a piece of a supposed great and controversial writers work who the industry supposedly conspires against.

but then again your probably so into your self that if we gave you anything but praise, you'd think we were against you too. but hey prove us wrong, post some work.

and take a class in humility.

booker41

Slight digression, why the picture of a bird with big tits as your avatar?

lin

You didn't respond to my "challenge" you moron. I said you ought to show some writing if you expect us to believe your stupid conspiracy vapors instead of the more apparent idea that you don't write or think very well.

You pop up s couple of lame assed scenarios like some kid shooting the shit on a campout.

Is that what they're rejecting? Are you sending them collections of trite concepts like that expecting them to respond?

I'll say it again, I doubt you've ever written a book in your life. I doubt you've completed anything much, actually.

But you can make me look like a stupid asshole here just by posting an example of your writing and showing us it's really good.

OR, you can keep ranting like a kid who's pissed his high chair and make YOU look like a stupid asshole. As you've been doing.

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johnaustin

As Foxee put it, I had to chuckle at your misplaced anger!

Jax1108, Lin and Foxxee hit the nail on the head concerning your freedom to write drivel, BudWiser! In any of the suppressed countries around the world (and there are many!) your ass would be jailed in a 10'x10' room sucking slop out of a soup bowl for dinner for writing your crap!

And Sam gave you good advice on perservance leading to publication...Actually, it is the only way.

Bud Wiser, it seems the only wisdom you have has been imparted by drinking too many Budweisers!!

John

__________________
The secret to a great writer is putting the seat of the pants to the seat of the chair. Please visit my fledgling site: http://yonsuk.tripod.com

NaCl

I fail to see the big problem with being rejected. I received a bunch of rejection slips (most form notes on a partial page) before I got my first "offer" to publish my MS. Since I am a first time novelist, the "offer" sucked. They would print the book at their cost and distribute it to a few selected markets. I would have no personal cost. They also offered to get it "reviewed" by some influential critics and they cautioned me about my responsibilities to "help" promote the book. It quickly became apparent that if my novel was going to be successful, it would be completely up to me to push the book. I turned down the offer! (Felt kind of good to send THEM a rejection letter!)

One thing they did not know is that I have owned my own profitable business(s) for over 30 years. I am not afraid of marketing and I am not afraid to invest money in a venture that I reasonably expect to produce a profit. Now, since I think I wrote a compelling story that the public will buy, I went out on a limb. I bought a list of ISBN numbers, hired a graphic artist for the cover illustration, engaged the services of an independent editor, set up local business licenses, arranged for an ecommerce-enabled website and, last but clearly not least, I negotiated a printing/binding contract. Wow! What a learning curve! Traditional publishers do a lot of work when they commit to publishing a book.

The bad news: I underestimated both the cost and time needed to build a "publishing company" from scratch. I'm out of pocket over $6,000 for the first 1000 paperback books and I don't yet even know if they will sell!

The good news: It's done. I can recover my entire investment with the sale of fewer than 500 books. If I am fortunate enough to sell the entire first printing, I will earn more than 7 times as much money as I would have received with the traditional publisher...a far better profit for me as a writer. In addition, I have enough profit margin in each book that if book store chains offer to carry the novel, I can still earn better than double the royalty proposed by the traditional publisher, despite the high cost of the distribution system.

I guess what I am saying is that if anyone honestly believes he or she has a story that will sell, then why even consider the paltry payments that are offered to most "first time, nobody" authors? This is especially true when such writers end up doing most of the promotional work for their own books.

Another observation coming out of this experience is that traditional publishers invest a lot of time and money bringing a book to market. If my little PC ever considers offering services to the general public, I guarantee I will be exceptionally careful to select ONLY those manuscripts that I feel offer ample profit potential. It's business. Businesses are about profits.

Bud, if your MS is so compelling, put your own money behind it, as I am doing. Who knows? You might get rich! As with all entrepeneurs, you might also lose it all! Isn't freedom great?!

.....NaCl

(OMG - how am I going to tell my wife I blew her 35th wedding anniversary funds on my new publishing company?!)