Need some tips about sci-fi weapons and improving modern weapons - Writers Forum

WriterDude · 11-13-2007, 07:44 AM

I'm creating a fantasy / sci-fi novel (as some of you know by now) and have started work on the sci-fi race. The magic race is pretty much finished, by the way. I ended up with rats, of all things. As for the sci-fi race, I have a few questions about their weapons.

* We all know and love flamethrowers, but would an icethrower work? I'm thinking a regular flamethrower, but loaded with liquid nitrogen instead of gas. In theory, the liquid nitrogen should freeze whatever it hits, so in can easily be smashed. This could be anything from doors to people.

* How small can a flamethrower be and still be effective? The usual is a big tank you carry on your back, but would a smaller, more portable flamethrower work? Maybe something like a painball gun, with flames instead of pain? (or liquid nitrogen).

* How would a poisonthrower work? Should it be a gas that easily vanish in the wind (thus requiring close combat or indoor to be effective), or could a poisonous liquid be used?

* How about acidthrowers? A bit nasty that one, but who said war is supposed to be fun? A spray of acid, or like a paintball gun with acid bullets instead of paint?

* Moving on to close combat, how would you power a electric sword? Batteries in the shaft and wires connected to the blade itself, or perhaps a small generator on your back like a flamethrower tank? If so, how big should the sword be to be used effectivly? A two-handed sword (could be heavy), or a smaller, one-handed weapon? Could a generator power two swords at once?

* For that matter, how about electric "claws" like Wolverine, except they are built into the gloves? This means the hands are free to do other things like using guns, but at the same time the claws can dramatically improve the soldier's chances in close combat and again, let's his hands be free to do other things. The claws could even be extended from his gloves, so you don't even see them unless he extends them. This is to make them convenient to use, not as a surprise in the story. (all of this will be in the appendix anyway to help me avoid taking the easy way out from a though spot).

Thanks for the tip. I'll have more questions later, but for now these will do.

Destroyer · 11-13-2007, 08:33 AM

I had this problem for Karmenren, since I wanted to put some more close-up fighting in, as opposed to the standard shoot from a distance tactic. I gave my characters weapons like a laser-tracking longbow with explosive arrows, a broadsword that generates heat from its blade, axes with spinning blades, and a sentient quarterstaff thing that kills people on contact.
Just take a look at the weapons you want to use and imagine a way to tech it up a bit. Not too much though; you don't want the weapon to be more powerful than the actual user. The fighting skill should still come from the person and not the weapon.

As for your questions, an icethrower sounds plausible. Just bear in mind that liquid nitrogen is a little more tricky to get hold of and contain.
Flamethrowers can be small, but remember that the less fuel you carry the less effective it will be. You still have to carry a large tank.
Acidthrowers sound good, but poisonthrowers seem to have a level of rsk with them that could make them more harm than good. It'd be too easy to infect your allies, and its easy to fit soldiers with full body armour suits to protect them. The enemy could do this as well. Using poison as a battlefield weapon s not very practical.
Both the electric sword and the electric claw ideas hae already proven that they will work. I refer you to the power weapons and lightning claws of the Space Marines. Visit the Game Workshop website and you should find details as to how they work. Just bear in mind that a lot of people will be familiar wih them, especially those who love the sci-fi genre. These weapons aren't particularly original.
You shouldn't need a generator on your back for the sword. In a sci-fi world the technology should exist to make such a thing small enough to fit insde the handle of the sword. Otherwise the weapon just isn't practical enough for use.

Hope this helps.

WriterDude · 11-13-2007, 09:08 AM

Thanks. Liquid nitrogen is perhaps hard to come by on our planet, but this is a fantasy / sci-fi novel. If I want icethrowers with liquid nitrogen, it's easy to come by. Simple as that.

Likewise, a poisonthrower might be dangerous to the allies, but certainly has it's uses. You don't use a flamethrower against he wind, after all. Besides, how about using a poisonthrower in a small, enclosed space like inside a house? Just spray the room and close the door. Same with acid throwers. They aren't much use in long range combat, but very deadly in close combat. Of course, whoever carries the weapon should have at least basic defense against his own weapon, so the acid won't work on the user's armor in case something goes wrong. For that matter, think about somehing common like a handgrenade. When it explodes, it doesn't care if you are a friend or foe. It kills anyone nearby.

As for the size the flamethrower, why do we need a big tank? What if we instead come up with a highly flamable substance like a fluid that's far more flamable than the regular one, so we need even less to get the same effect? We could also add a lot of pressure to it, making it even smaller. There is of corse a risk the whole thing could explode, but the prototypes went through all that and made it safer. I want to keep it realistic, but at the same improve it based on reality. Everything they use should be possible to do in real life, even if we don't have the technology yet.

It's the same with the swords and claws. A sword could be clumsy unless you put the powersource in the handle, but claws will let the hands be free to do other things and only need to be extended when the user needs them to be. I have never seen things like that done (though I will check the Games Workshop webside) and was just experiementing with ideas how to make it work. Putting the powersource in the handle or gloves just sounds a bit... easy, somehow. I don't know, maybe it just doesn't sound like it will be powerful enough if it is so small. Maybe a small generator in the belt, perhaps? I need to think about that, but thanks.

Destroyer · 11-13-2007, 09:11 AM

Trust me, they can be very powerful with that small a generator. Read any Warhammer 40k book and you'll see it for yourself.

And your weapons don't really need to be high on technology. One of my characters carries a couple of short throwing knives that are attached to bracelets by steel wires. The bracelets have small winch systems inside, simple enough machinery that just pulls the knives back into her hands, well suited to her lifestyle as a dancer.
When deciding on your weapons, conssider your character's lifestyle and personality and choose a weapon that matches.
Also I have a great sword simply made from a chunk of bone. Not very tech, but suits the situation when you consider the wielder.

WriterDude · 11-13-2007, 09:15 AM

I kinda tried reading both WH40k and WH Fantasy, but it wasn't interesting. It's just war, war and more war. I prefer variation, like Dragonlance.

Destroyer · 11-13-2007, 09:17 AM

It's not entirely war. Well, it is, but 40k makes it a little different in that it manages to mould sci-fi aspects with fantasy, in the presence of sorcery and deamons and the entire idea of the chaos gods. It's worth a read if just for that reason. You dn't often find good mixes between sci-fi and fantasy. Mst of the tie it just seems out of place.

WriterDude · 11-13-2007, 09:21 AM

I've checked the space marines, and they seem too powerful for my story. I want more realism. And btw, the story I'm writing is a mix between fantasy and sci-fi.

Destroyer · 11-13-2007, 09:23 AM

Then you'll need to make it fit together. And the Space Marines are powerful. It's the entire point behind them. The creators of 40k made it plausible by turning half of them to the dark side.
Good luck with your book. I hope it does work out.

WriterDude · 11-13-2007, 09:37 AM

Me too. The idea behind the book is we have a race of rats (inspired by the Skaven, btw) who live in a medieval world. All of them know how to use magic to some degree, but more like the Force than D&D style magic. One day a bunch of spaceships show up and lands on the other side of the lake. The problem is the lake contain minerals the rats need to fuel their magic, and the newcomers need it to fuel their machines. The newcomers use modern technology (the spaceships should be a big hint), and of course, war breaks out between them. The problem is the rats aren't good fighters (they have basic soldiers, magic-using soldiers, ninjas and samurai, but that's it), while the newcomers have guns, machineguns, the various flame-, ice- etc throwers, the electric blade and claws and so on. I want each side to be very different, yet balanced. If a bunch of Space Marines showed up, they could simply erradicate the entire rat race in less than an hour since they are so powerful. I'm not saying I don't like them, just that they won't work in this story. Thanks for the tips, though.

Harfish · 11-13-2007, 01:29 PM

Well I'll give you my opinions based on some of my experiences.

The problem with liquid nitrogen is it is so cold. Because of the difference in temperature between it and the air, it starts to evaporate rapidly. Small droplets from an icethrower would evaporate before they got near a target. Now something that fires ice projectiles, that's possible and pretty cool.

The problem with flamethrowers is you need the material you are burning to burn slowly and dirty. An acetylene torch burns extremely hot but makes a crap weapon, unless you're really close, because the gas burns too quickly. Anything which burns slowly enough tends to be a liquid which requires a large tank.

Of course that's the beauty of sci-fi, there's a newly discovered gas in your world which powers a weapon that provides a one off five second burn with a range of 30 yards and can be fitted to the barrel of any firearm. Sort of like a bayonet, but with fire.

Acid and poison throwers could work, but the problem is they are too indiscriminant. You could easily hit an ally as well as an enemy.

I love the idea of electrical claws built into combat gloves. To be effective they will need a powerful charge, so they may need to have a limited number of uses or have some fancy tiny power supply. Of course George Lucas got away with making a sword from light...

WriterDude · 11-13-2007, 02:23 PM

Thanks for the tip. The sci-fi race came from space, so naturally they are a bit ahead of us in technology. I still want to make it realistic, so everything they can make, we can make (in theory) when we reach their technological level. This means no lightsabers or that, but improving already existing weapons or new weapons based on actual physics are very interesting. This means a good, old flamethrower can be made smaller and more effective, as all they need a new powersource. Think holding a lighter in front of a deodorant. There's a deent flamethrower right there, operating on liquid gas. All we need is a new type of gas that burns slower, so they need less of it. If they compress it (like you do with oxygen when diving), they would need even less. Besides, who said a flamethrower has to last for hours? We could have smaller flamethrowers that only last a short while, like for an assault team. They will clear out small rooms, weaken the enemies and so on and is protected by people with machineguns and so on. Likewise, I don't see any reason why a poisonthrower or acidthrower can't work just because it's potentially dangerous for allies. Isn't a grenade or rocketlauncher dangerous as well? Besides, what if one soldier falls, and an enemy grabs his machinegun? There's always a risk involved when dealing with weapons, so the thing to think about is how much you are willing to risk compared to how effective the weapon is. If you spray with an acidthrower into a room full of enemies, there isn't much they can do about it. Isn't that worth the risk? Besides, acidthrowers and poisonthrowers should never be used when there are allies around anyway, as well as allies and the user should always have protection against both acid and poison anyway. (this is sci-fi, after all).

As for the electrical glowes, they are supposed to be a last-chance melee weapon. This is why they are gloves in the first place. You normally don't even see them, and don't hinder the user at all any more than regular gloves. But if, and only if, he have to fight hand to hand, the claws come out and turns electric. The powersource doesn't have to last longer than thirty minutes, but the source can't be big. And although both races use the minerals found in the lake or ocean, the sci-fi race should have their own powersource before they even come to he planet. Maybe the minerals work in a similar way as the old powersource, but weaker? This means they are formidable warriors to begin with, but the strange minerals make them even stronger. This also explain how they can develop icethrowers. The minerals keep the nitrogen cold a short while longer, so it finally turns effective for practical use. They had prototypes before, but the old powersource simply weren't powerful enough for the icethrowers to be used more than a few minutes, and the nitrogen evaoprated too quickly. Or maybe they can load the icethrower with waterbaloons filled with liquid nitrogen, so keep it in a contained space until it hits something or someone? I'm not quite sure about that yet, but it should work somehow. The impossible only takes a while longer.

Destroyer · 11-14-2007, 04:37 AM

It sounds to me that all these rats have going for them is the force-type magic. It'll have to be rather powerful for them even to have a chance, and they'd presumably have to have something to protect them from aerial attack or the war would be over in a few days.

WriterDude · 11-14-2007, 05:02 AM

Oh, they will be powerful alright. Don't worry about that.

The rats (ratichi, inspired by the Skaven from Warhammer) use some sort of Force type magic of some sort, but unlike the Force works far more like traditional fantasy magic. Each ratichi learns to draw from the magic (or Force, if you will) when they are very young, so they can do small things like hover a few centimeters above ground (even glide across the surfaces, including water), pick up things from a distance kinda like telekinesis and so on when they are about five years old in human years. But instead of having schools of magic or spells, the rats use it to improve their work. This means a blacksmith can use the magic to keep his oven warm and make better armor and weapons than normal, a ninja (they have a big part of the story to compensate for lack of ninja monkeys, btw) can use magic to jump higher, turn invisible, draw the shadows closer (a bit like the Darkness-spell in D&D, but only draws from the shadows already there and extends them) and so on. This also means elemental-based ratichi can somewhat control elements, so if one is caught between two flamehrowers, he or she can use magic to "push" the flames back. This means the flames won't reach him or her, but the ratichi can't push the flames so far back it goes back into the flamethrowre. The same goes for ice-, poison- and acidthrowers, of course - but only if the ratichi have specialized in controlling the elements. This could help protect the other ratichi as well, so the group works best together. (and that said, there's nothing wrong with an elemental-based ninja). One ninja simply called Ravenheart can communicate with the animals through her magic, so the animals can be spies, help defend her and her friends, attack enemies, pretty much whatever she asks of them. Note that she does not controll them, only communicates with them. As for the city itself, it's a floating "orb" that consist of a castle in the middle, nobles around it, peasants and shops around that again and guardhouses at the edge. It is also protected by a powerful shield, blocking pretty much anything. The shield isn't enough, though, and that's where the guard houses come in. The guards are magic users just like all ratichi, and have spent years perfecting defensive magic. They help keep the shield in place, but can of course use offensive spells to get rid of annoying enemies. This means the city might look weak at first, but it's a stronghold and almost invulnerable just like the spaceships.

All in all, one of the things I work hardest on is making two races that are fundamentally different and very balanced. The ninjas for instance are very poor fighters in the open, but due to their small size and great agility and speed, they are excepionally great in close quarter combat and when taking the enemies by surprise. One example is using magic to guide an arrow towards an enemy, so the arrow always hits perfectly and never loose speed no matter how far they shoot it. This "spell" is an instant kill, but only works when the ratichi are focusing and can see the arrow. This also means while he can instantly kill a guard, the other guards can be a problem. That's where stealth comes in. And while the ratichi ninja can turn invisible (literally) he still leaves a "blurr" in the air like the Predator. This makes them formidable warriors in close quarters and when allowed to use stealth, but they are equally defenseless in the open or when facing multiple enemies at once.

All in all, both races should be very balanced. While the sci-fi race could simply bomb the ratichi city, the ratichi ninjas can sneak into the sci-fi race's spaceship city and do some serious sabotage (like blowing up the bombers in the first place). Each side have their strengths and weaknesses.

Ninjas are not all, of course. There's also Samurai, Soldiers and Battlemages (like soldiers, but focus on offensive and defensive magic more than weapons).

Destroyer · 11-14-2007, 05:19 AM

Your culture's going to be based a bit on the Japanese then?

WriterDude · 11-14-2007, 05:25 AM

The rats, yes. How did you know?

I'm not sure about the others. Enough medieval Europe, I say. If I am going to make this original and "mine", why not go all the way? They could even have a mythology based on the japanese mythology.