On Japanese honorifics in fiction - Writers Forum

C.V. Reynolds · 10-29-2007, 03:32 PM

I don't want to spend a lot of time trying to explain honorifics in this post, so please pardon me for that. This is already going to be a long post as it is without me delving deep into the honorifics game.

My novel is a fantasy sci-fi novel with a hybrid western/eastern theme to it. Plenty of the characters have Japanese names, and Japanese culture elements abound.

So, at some point - I don't remember when - I ended up applying Japanese honorifics to the character speech. IE: San, sama, chan, kun, etc.

This seems natural to me, but I'm... well, me. I told myself that fantasy and sci-fi writers make up their own world elements all of the time, and people are expected to read all sorts of terms that they wouldn't hear in real life, so it's no big deal.

I also wanted the honorifics in because they show that the characters are on different rungs of a "social ladder," and because I felt that it showed depth in how the characters might perceive each other.

Nevertheless, there is something that concerns me, and the reads of this post may guessed what it is by now. What publisher is going to have any confidence in touching the book?

I thought this seemed unfair to me, since it's my own alien universe and other fiction writers create their own speech systems anyway. However, I have the idea that many would-be writers send in submissions with not only honorifics, but randomly placed Japanese words, and that the publishers are sick of seeing them.

I suppose that my question in the end is: Is it worth removing something I liked from my book in an effort to make it seem less foreign, despite it actually taking place in a foreign universe? I do plan to get published, anyway.

WriterJohnB · 10-29-2007, 04:34 PM

C.V.,

A member of my writing group is IJ Parker, who writes mystery novels about an 11th century Japanese bureaucrat who becomes renowned for solving crimes. She's a retired Eng. Lit. Prof, and a devotee of Japanese history, but does not speak Nihongo. She's also published regularly in a major mystery magazine. She completely ignores honorifics and her editors and publishers are happy with that. Hope that helps.

JohnB

Futhark · 10-29-2007, 05:56 PM

C.V., it all really depends on the story. Though I must admit, I agree with JohnB that editors would probably not like the honorifics very much.

Here's an analogy. In a story set in the old courts of England, would you prefer every sentence to read like, "Mine heart flutters, milord, at thy correspondence regaling thine exploits along the wasted Northern Borders"? Or would it be better to have the heroine say, "I was frightened by that letter you sent me about your troubles in the north"? (I know, neither is really great, but cut me some slack

)

While the first illustrates the historical decorum of courtly speech, the second is much more easily understandable, and it gets the point across to the reader in a more direct way.

Unless, of course, the point was to show the way the character spoke instead of to tell a story. Then, I guess, it wouldn't really matter whether she was understandable or not.

Hope this helps!

Voodoo · 10-29-2007, 10:06 PM

Look at Things Fall Apart. ijiji and all that shit was everywhere, but it's said only because it'd be too difficult to translate into english. (Like Obi is that goddamned much of a stretch from 'little hut.')

Randomly placing anything anywhere is a bad idea.

If you feel the Ho-San in the middle of the sentence full of other english words would fuck it up, it probably would. If you think it must be there, then it's still probably fucked up but you'll keep it.

Don't know why you'd remove something you like and feel is vital to the text just for some silly old bitch of a publishing house, though.

C.V. Reynolds · 10-30-2007, 01:27 AM

My thanks to you all! I was actually worried that I would receive at least one response telling me that I was being childish, stupid, etc. Your replies are all wonderful and informative. I'm glad I joined these forums.

The reason I asked this question is because I've read people saying that a writer shouldn't be a stubborn artiste, and should bend for publishers and/or editors. I'm wondering how much a writer should bend, and I'm asking if the honorifics are the sort of thing that an author should try to hold on to.

Here is a brief example of the use of honorifics in the story, used by my character Ichigo:

"Toshio Minarin?"

"Who are you?"

The man in the suit pulled his identification from a coat pocket and held it up. The card identified him as Ichigo. The rest of his name, if he had one, was left out.

"How did you know my name?"

"We've been looking for you, Minarin-san."

"Look, I'm not a thief. This is my stuff, so--"

"Don't lie to me, Minarin-san. My organization has done much research on you and your talent for stealing things that are difficult to steal." Ichigo put his ID away.

Ichigo prefers to address people with the "san" suffix. He's very business-like, and his faction often deploys him in meetings to be their mouthpiece. Minarin, meanwhile, never uses a single honorific over the course of the story. He's arrogant, impertinent, and casual about most things. The only person he would use an honorific for is his girlfriend, and she doesn't appear in the book.

Voodoo · 10-30-2007, 04:36 AM

Main point would just be to be consistent with the characters. Would want someone saying Look here and -san in the same sentence, but you don't seem to fall prey to that.

You bend for the people who are going to fuck you. That is not a publisher. Don't be stupid and fight them, just tell them what will stay and what you'll do for them.

ClancyBoy · 10-30-2007, 05:59 AM

Those are titles, not honorifics. There's nothing honorable about "chan" and "kun."

Translate them. "Mister" and "Sir" are perfectly accurate equivalents. Putting -san and -sama at the ends of names is gay anime fanboy crap.

Adam Lewis · 10-30-2007, 10:42 AM

I have been living in Japan for 9 years now. I really dont see any reason why you would not use honorifics in your book. firstly if your story involves Japanese themes then your readers will probably like the of use honorifics. I have read quite a number of great books that use them and a few that dont, the ones that dont fail to capture me as the thought of a samurai named mister hashimoto just doesn't jive.
Using chan or kun is also perfectly viable as they pertain very much to the relationship between the characters. as much as san and sama do. also consider using alternate terms like sempai,kohai, sensei etc.
If you need any advice on Japan feel free to ask, though it sounds like you have a solid grasp already!
Ganbutte ne!

C.V. Reynolds · 11-01-2007, 09:57 AM

All comments appreciated. Reading the sentence "gay anime fanboy crap" not so much appreciated (it is always unfortunate for me to hear "gay" as an insult), but thanks for the advice anyway.

It's my first novel, and so I'm a newbie to all of this. I'm very happy to be receiving advice. I hope that I can reciprocate, but I'm not sure if I'm good enough to be giving anyone alse advice.

Thank you!