How much can I assume the reader knows about thing? - Page 3 - Writers Forum

TimK · 10-14-2007, 07:17 PM

Just in case this gets read (which it may not, because this thread has been destroyed)...

Another thought occurred to me. When it comes to pop-culture references, the character I hold up as my own personal paragon is Lorelai Gilmore, the TV character created by Amy Sherman-Palladino. Now, you may not like Lorelai-- That's okay if you don't. But one technique I find useful is to find a character who exhibits a quality that I want to embody in my own character, analyze the character, determine what characteristics he has that reflect that quality, and then apply those characteristics to my own character. Now, you should of course never copy someone else's character, because you don't need to. But it's perfectly valid--indeed, it's the only way to improve your own writing--to take away lessons from the stories and characters that you yourself love, and to apply them to your own writing.

-TimK

lin · 10-15-2007, 02:43 AM

Edited out: What the hell is the point?

sdavis2k · 10-15-2007, 03:15 AM

First off I did not read through all the previous posts, but I will throw my opinion in.

I think having another character ask what she means by "the mile" would make sense. Just reading the line myself I did not know you were making reference to "the green mile". If you want to make a more pop culture reference why not have her mention she felt like a "dead man walking" which is what most movies and TV shows have a guard yelling while leading a prisoner to death row or their execution.

As far as your Norse mythology references, yes please clarify those. Unless you just want people who have done research into Tolkien and his frequent use of Norse mythology or bastardization of it in his books reading yours you will need to explain it.

As far as you thinking your characters sound like morons, try listening to a conversation of typical 20 somethings. The ones I have caught bits and pieces of usually are not discussing nightelves, but that could just be the crowd I am around.

Mike C · 10-15-2007, 04:59 AM

Hmm. To get the discussion back on track...

Look at it this way: how stupid do you think your reader is? If you think he/she is reasonably bright, at least as intelligent as you are, then treat them with the respect that their intelligence is due and don't talk down to them. Not only is explaining every detail patronising, it's far worse - it's boring.

I don't know what 'the mile' is, specifically, because in the UK we don't have a culture of killing criminals, but I worked it out. And if your reader misses the occasional reference (and let's be honest, we all do, now and again, read something obscure or find a word we're unfamiliar with that we either look up, guess the meaning from context or skim over) then what does it matter?

Now, whose lackey does that make me?

Mermaid on the breakwater · 10-15-2007, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Sci Fi

I think your posts speak for themselves, so that's all I'm going to say on the subject.

Good day.

Yes, they do speak volumes, they are all clearly with an element of irritation but then I think that's to be expected when the guy just won't reason and construes everything to suit his own argument.

I did make a clear argument, I said it was ridiculous to explain every nuance of every detail and he countered with the proclomation that successful authors explained every nuance of every detail when he knows full well that they didn't do that.

One more fallacy to the list, it's just an appeal to authority without backing it up; the examples he gave were explanations of more complex issues and I've said before, explanation is a good thing but explanation of anything and everything is just not valuable advice.

Just isn't.

We never got past that part of the argument because he failed to see that every post he made was just insulting and without foundation. You can't respond rationally to that.

On reflection, I should have just walked away but I got embroiled in the moment and quite frankly, can't stand his attitude.

Mermaid on the breakwater · 10-15-2007, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike C

Now, whose lackey does that make me?

Oh no, Mike, don't underestimate the versatility of word weaver, he wouldn't call you anybody's lackey. He'd most certainly make out that there is some kind of conspiracy against him if he was still allowed to post. Seeing as how three members all disagree with him when he's so clearly right on every issue he allows his vastly superior brain to contemplate.

But seriously, I agree with you Mike, and i wish I'd been able to post in such a calm manner and express my views as simply.

lin · 10-15-2007, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Now, whose lackey does that make me?

Sorry, Mike, but there's no room for sentiment in the lackey business. You're out, Mermaid is in. Try to pick up the pieces of your life and move on.

Mermaid on the breakwater · 10-15-2007, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lin

Sorry, Mike, but there's no room for sentiment in the lackey business. You're out, Mermaid is in. Try to pick up the pieces of your life and move on.

Thank you, Lin. I finally got that acceptance I was apparently so desperately seeking. And hey, I offer very nice cups of tea to anybody who employs me and I give no backchat. It will be a thuperduper pweasuuure working with you.

Doctor Snuff · 10-15-2007, 10:12 AM

Its not necersary, just as you had it Writerdude is fine. Worstcase scenario, the reader will have no idea that you're even referring to something and will simply take it as 'oh she just did something difficult.' Its such a minor thing, some people will get the full grasp of it, some won't, thats a good thing in a way, its the reason why the same person will read the same novel more than once. As for your char names, there's no need to explain them either. As long as they hold up in regards to the story its fine. The way you portray the chars might even invoke an interest in the reader towards norse mythology, they might look up these characters and discover all these different platitudes to them, all b/c you inspired them to do so. The title, you should explain, after all it is the title so it must bare some significance, if its a subtle significane than just do it in a clever way.

Mr Sci Fi · 10-15-2007, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike C

Now, whose lackey does that make me?

Mine, mwuahaha!

WriterDude · 10-16-2007, 01:40 PM

*sigh* One simple question, so far we've reached four pages and three of them are just people calling each other names. Well, at least you are a bit creative at times.

As for me, I'm more interested in writing the book than reading who calls who what. Good night, and may your mouth keep saying meaningless things even your brain don't care about.

Oh, and the Green Mile isn't really Stephen King at all. It's a common nickname for the last part the prisoners walk on Death Row when they are about to be executed. King just wrote a book that takes place mainly on Death Row, and that's why he used the name Green Mile. Simple as that. And while it might not be an entire mile, it certainly feels like it for most people.

wyf · 10-16-2007, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lin

there's no room for sentiment in the lackey business. Mermaid is in. Try to pick up the pieces of your life and move on.

Ok, so how about running-dog? Has that spot gone? I'll be your dog. I'll even wear the leash.

geektarra · 10-16-2007, 11:38 PM

Whenever I'm reading something and I don't understand a reference, I get out a dictionary or Google it. Other readers can do the same. Will the average reader? I don't know.

I do get annoyed if there are too many odd-ball references made and not explained through the course of normal dialogue, etc. Then I start to think that the writer is just being a show-off or an intellectual snob.

It helps if the reader can gather the meaning from its context. I think your reference to the Green Mile is okay. It's pop culture; I haven't even seen the movie and I knew what you were getting at. The Norse mythology is more of a stretch, though.

Mike C · 10-17-2007, 02:49 AM

I saw an interview with Tom Stoppard the other day, on his writing of the screenplay for "Shakespeare in Love". He said that the script was littered with industry and Shakespearian 'in' jokes and references. Some people would get them, some not, but that it didn't matter as long as they enjoyed the movie.

WriterDude · 10-17-2007, 08:37 AM

That would be like Shrek, Ice Age, Toy Story and all those "kiddie" movies. They are supposed to be for kids, but there are a lot of jokes only the adults get. (like in Shrek, when they see the huge tower and Shrek goes "You don't think he's compensating for something?" And no, I don't think he was talking about the guy's height.)

But what I am talking about is letting the characters speak normally instead of like morons. If you were talking to a friend of yours, would you say "the mile" or "the green mile. You know, the one on death row"? I would go with "the mile". But this is just an example. The original question was how much references I can include before it starts to get confusing. I still don't have a clue.

As for norse mythology, it's a fundamental part of the movie and has to be included. But for the same reason, I will add something about norse mythology on the back of the book (or even in the title), and assume the reader knows something. If you read a title like "War in Valhalla" or something like that, it shouldn't be surprising it takes place in norse mythology.