Magic by another name... - Page 2 - Writers Forum

faithless · 05-10-2007, 07:47 PM

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I don't think it's particularly limited by the culture in either case as it is something entirely new.

It must be limited by the cultures in the sense that the term for “powers” will be a word (or words), and words come from languages, and languages come from cultures, but I think you mean that it is not limited to the pre-existing terminology of either culture, and I agree with you.

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By the time the MC of the story arrives in Arcadia the powers would have been around for 500 years so a name will already exist for them, provided I can think one up of course. It's origins don't matter that much, so arguing over it probably isn't worth it.

My argument was never based around the origins of the nomenclature.
I took Cran’s argument as: “because you are limited by cultures, and because your characters are like the X-men, the term ‘mutations’ is just fine,” which was contradictory to the intent of your posting, and as I have mentioned, there are other alternatives to generic terminology. And arguing is worth it to me because from debate truth is found…and besides, I like to discover how other people think (which is a valuable desire for a writer to own, I might add).

I will read your story later and see if I can come up with a unique name for the powers based on the content of your story. As for now, I have had enough enjoyment for one night.

Cran · 05-10-2007, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faithless

It must be limited by the cultures in the sense that the term for “powers” will be a word (or words), and words come from languages, and languages come from cultures, but I think you mean that it is not limited to the pre-existing terminology of either culture, and I agree with you.

And I agree also ... but where pre-existing terminologies are not used, new terminologies must be developed and incorporated into the society ... it's often been a case of applying a new definition to a pre-existing word or phrase ...
examples abound in our internet culture, and in science and technology ...
other words have been developed from acronyms; eg, laser ...
then there are examples where a specific make has been adopted for generic use; eg, xerox, hoover, biro ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by faithless

My argument was never based around the origins of the nomenclature.
I took Cran’s argument as: “because you are limited by cultures, and because your characters are like the X-men, the term ‘mutations’ is just fine,” ...

which was exactly the opposite of my intention ... the X-men reference was an illustration of the challenge that chris54321 faces, and an acknowledgment that the challenge is not trivial ...

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chris54321: I have to say, having two people with the same display picture arguing with one another is somewhat disconcerting.

not quite the same avatar ... but perhaps one of us is the other's evil twin?

...
of course, "which one is which?" is another debate entirely ...

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chris54321:I don't think it's particularly limited by the culture in either case as it is something entirely new.

In what way is it something entirely new?

edited to add:

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faithless: Just because the people come from Earth does not mean they must come from our Earth.

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chris54321:The 'Heroes' are basically people from our world ...

have I missed something?

Destroyer · 05-11-2007, 02:38 AM

It doesn't have to be called mutations of powers. the general public could be highly superstitious and see those powers as magic. After all, back before science was widely accepted, everything that people couln't understand was considered to be magic. Just use that as your basis.

Mike · 05-11-2007, 03:20 AM

You should call it "dazzle."
If it's not a talent or skill, it's most likely a chronic manifestation of dazzle.
"Oh shit, there goes my dazzle again."

chris54321 · 05-11-2007, 05:50 AM

Sorry, basically to explain - the Heroes have arrived in Arcadia twice. Once, 500 years ago in Arcadia time, 12 teenagers turned up from our world and survived there for a good few years before they were all killed. Once they're there, they are not able to travel back and forth so they just try and fit in with Arcadia as best they can.

At the start of the story another 12 turn up, but some of the original Heroes had children who were half-bloods and thus still quite powerful. Powers have been floating around in Arcadia since the time of the Heroes, then, though they are being slowly diluted. When the Heroes turn up, they're far more powerful, but it has been seen before in the mists of time.

As to how it is 'entirely new', before the Heroes came 500 years ago there were no extraordinary powers at all, everyone was just a normal person. All of the magic of the world comes from the blood those Heroes brought with them.

In terms of being limted by linguistics, only in the loosest sense. Yeah, the characters speak English so I won't call their powers "kasrsrs'rasniarnkar'as", but it doesn't neccessarily have to be a prexisting word. Laser is a good example, as mentioned above - the word is actually an acronym.

Faustling · 05-11-2007, 06:30 AM

As I don't have the time to read through the thread this might already have been said but it doesn't matter to repeat it if that's the case. Anyway, if the word (an English word) was introduced 500 years ago when the first teens arrived it's very possible that it evolved over the years. Let's say they originally called it powers or talens, it might have resulted in p'wers or tolans. (I know those are lousy examples but hopefully you'll get my point).

faithless · 05-11-2007, 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cran

which was exactly the opposite of my intention ... the X-men reference was an illustration of the challenge that chris54321 faces, and an acknowledgment that the challenge is not trivial ...

Cran, I am sorry I mistook the intention of your post, which was really the only reason for our disagreement.

faithless: Just because the people come from Earth does not mean they must come from our Earth.

chris54321:The 'Heroes' are basically people from our world ...

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Originally Posted by Cran

have I missed something?

Nothing was missed, but I take it you don’t read fantasy or sci-fi. In many shows and books of science fiction, when characters come from our world--Earth--into a different world, the Earth they come from is often different in at least one fundamental way (as in, it is an Earth of the future).

The first example that comes to mind is Donald E. McQuinn’s “Warrior” trilogy. Many of the main characters are people that come from “Earth,” but it is an Earth of the future after a nuclear holocaust has occurred. In “Stargate” the protagonists are from Earth, but there is an artifact called the “Stargate” which lets them travel between worlds. Even the story “X-men” can be said to occur on Earth, but rather, it is a world called Earth that is based around our planet only loosely. None of these stories take place on our Earth (so far as I know) because there is at least one fundamental difference.

So even though the author, Chris, said the protagonists are from Earth, they don’t have to be from our Earth; in fact they couldn’t be, for as far as I know, an “Earthling” has never traveled to a land called “Arcadia.”

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Originally Posted by Cran

not quite the same avatar ... but perhaps one of us is the other's evil twin? of course, "which one is which?" is another debate entirely ...

Wonderful. I have always wanted to be someone’s evil twin!

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Originally Posted by Faustling

Let's say they originally called it powers or talens, it might have resulted in p'wers or tolans. (I know those are lousy examples but hopefully you'll get my point).

This is a great idea, because it could lead to an original term, and it fits with the story. Chris, I think a solid answer can be found using this logic.

Tirisyil · 05-11-2007, 07:25 AM

You could always call it a "trick"... Some people can be "trickier" then others...

Cran · 05-13-2007, 12:51 PM

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Originally Posted by faithless

Cran, I am sorry I mistook the intention of your post, which was really the only reason for our disagreement.

Accepted ... looking back at the post, I can see how that could happen ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by faithless

faithless: Just because the people come from Earth does not mean they must come from our Earth.
chris54321:The 'Heroes' are basically people from our world ...
Cran: have I missed something?

Nothing was missed, but I take it you don’t read fantasy or sci-fi.

Well, actually ... I do ...
fiction makes up about 35% of my book library (the bulk of my books are technical and reference volumes), and over 90% (thinned down to about 350 titles before the house move before last) of the fiction are F/SF - including some which feature elements of both ...
of my video library, nearly 30% (about 180 titles) of the shelves are F/SF ...

rural isolation, poverty, and the lack of bookshelf space prevent me from adding to that ...

edited to add: even my own draft manuscript is fantasy (wizards, dragons, elves, and lots of swords

...)

Quote:

Originally Posted by faithless

In many shows and books of science fiction, when characters come from our world--Earth--into a different world, the Earth they come from is often different in at least one fundamental way (as in, it is an Earth of the future).

The first example that comes to mind is Donald E. McQuinn’s “Warrior” trilogy. Many of the main characters are people that come from “Earth,” but it is an Earth of the future after a nuclear holocaust has occurred. In “Stargate” the protagonists are from Earth, but there is an artifact called the “Stargate” which lets them travel between worlds. Even the story “X-men” can be said to occur on Earth, but rather, it is a world called Earth that is based around our planet only loosely. None of these stories take place on our Earth (so far as I know) because there is at least one fundamental difference.

So even though the author, Chris, said the protagonists are from Earth, they don’t have to be from our Earth; in fact they couldn’t be, for as far as I know, an “Earthling” has never traveled to a land called “Arcadia.”

Other examples include time-stream splits (parallel or "alternate" Earths) where some moment in our history was altered, leading to a different "present" or "future" ...

but, if you look back at my posts, I never insisted it was "our" Earth - simply Earth, and therefore (like all of the possible or fictional Earths) founded in the languages and cultures, histories, myths and legends of Earth; ie, our languages and cultures, whether it be English, Cyrillic, Sanskrit, Magyar, Hindi or Tagalog ...

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chris54321: As to how it is 'entirely new', before the Heroes came 500 years ago there were no extraordinary powers at all, everyone was just a normal person. All of the magic of the world comes from the blood those Heroes brought with them.

OK ... which means that, when the Arcadians became aware of these extraordinary people, did they have their own myths, legends, faerie tales or religions which might provide the terminology? Or, did they ask the newcomers "who are you, stranger, and how did you do that?" If the latter, then the "Heroes" would have been put on the spot to explain themselves, and they would only have the languages, myths and legends, etc, that they already knew to draw upon ...

Faustling makes the very valid point that, regardless of the original words used to describe the "Heroes", their descendants, and what they could do ... after 500 years, the living language would have evolved and the words may well be quite different ... letter substitution, contraction, or even brand association - ie, particular powers might be named after the first person to demonstrate that ability (and then the word can still be evolved - eg, say the first one with pyrokenesis was David, the ability might end being called daedfyre ... from "David's fire") ... and the generic name might be something like urthbairn (from Earth-born), or urthers, etc ...

chris54321 · 05-14-2007, 05:43 PM

Good points all - I like what Faustling was saying, too. Cran, you've expanded on it and given me a bit of food for thought. Thanks, it was an angle I hadn't explored and one I'm quite glad you pointed out.

Cran · 05-14-2007, 09:56 PM

if we've helped you at all, chris54321, then it's a job well done ...
and I'm glad to have been part of that ...

Power to the pencil! ...

Faustling · 05-15-2007, 02:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cran

if we've helped you at all, chris54321, then it's a job well done ...
and I'm glad to have been part of that ...

Same here, glad to be of assistance.

slemay · 05-15-2007, 07:32 AM

I haven't waded through all the replies, but thought I would add my 2 cents. I am an avid reader of sci fi and fantasy, and I think using words like power/ability/talent is a good idea. At least the reader will understand it.