How do you prefer to portray combat? - Writers Forum

Honjo · 07-12-2008, 12:18 PM

Hi there, I was going over some of my old books the other day, having a quick flip through a few novels such as Dune, Lord of the Rings, and the Diablo series by Richard Knaak, and suddenly it became apparent, to me at least, that none of these authors seemed to favour a particularly realistic approach when it came to depicting small scale, often one-on-one type battle situations. I wondered then, if there are any authors known here on the forums that have been known to provide erudite, even detailed accounts of such conflicts, and if so, who are they, and what is your take on their particular style?
I ask this because lately I’ve been having a great deal of difficulty depicting what I’d define as realism and form, (using actual fencing terminology, such as passata-sotto, for instance) and keeping the reader interested. It’s my concern that the more accurate and detailed the accounts become, the less the reader will be capable of following. Any advice on your own methods for depicting such scenes? Do you prefer a less constrained, more far-fetched style, or one more grounded in the practical?
I’m mostly interested in swordplay, rather then the modern or fantastical warfare, but all suggestions are welcome.

SparkyLT · 07-12-2008, 12:31 PM

I have a hard time portraying combat, myself. In fact I'm terrible at it. I try to stay grounded in reality, but I take martial arts, I've seen some things people can do, and my 'reality' may not add up with everyone else's.

You say you're mainly interested in swordplay (me too, I love swords). there are few basic things you can do with a sword: slash and stab. But you can slash or stab to head, neck, body, legs... Also include movements other than just attacking with the blade, like kicking, striking with the free hand (unless it's a two-handed sword, of course), rolling (totally possible, I've done it, but not with a sharpened sword because I would probably cut myself), leaping etc.

Fighting is often deeper than it looks. Include thoughts, if you want (he turned his back to me, maybe I can hamstring him), though it might take away from the action of the moment. Or put it like this, Guy A lost his balance and stumbled; Guy B took his chance to spin behind him and slash at his ankles, atempting to slice his hamstrings. However, Guy A recovered quickly and leaped over the blade, coming down to face Guy B with
his sword screaming over his head, intending to sever Guy B's arm...

Oh, and one final thing...if you have magical \ sacred \ holy \ etc. sword, give them names so you don't keep repeating the word 'sword'.

Hope that helps,
SparkyLT

Honjo · 07-12-2008, 02:23 PM

Thanks for the input, glad to see I'm not the only writer here with a penchant for all things sword related. (How could anyone not love something so sharp and shiny?)
I also study the martial arts, and I find it a real challenge to write anything that doesn't draw from that. For instance I often want to use actual sword terminology, (from Japanese arts mostly) but if I were to say something like, "So-and-so dropped into chudan no kamae, swiping for his enemy's wrist in a rapid ura gote cut) very few people would know to what I'm referring. I want to provide an accurate depiction of budo, (essential in my book) while at the same time not confusing the reader more then necessary.
So my question is, does anyone know of another author who has attempted this, and to what success, if any? In all the books I mentioned above I can only find one account where there is an attempt at using any semblance of terminology whatsoever, where in Dune, the protagonist, Paul, takes up a stance with rapier described as ‘aguile’. I wonder if other writers in the past have attempted to draw from their own expertise, only to be shot down by publishers as too hard to follow.
Should I give up trying to find a middle ground, and just write exciting Robin Hood-type representations, or keep at it until it all makes sense to the reader? I think I’ve made progress in my own work, but I’m still having difficulty. What does everyone else think about it?

Malone · 07-12-2008, 03:16 PM

Since you seem to like fantasy, try the Wheel of Times series. Great one on one combat in that one.

Also, many of Tom Clancy's books have good combat descriptions. The on with Mr. Clark getting revenge on the pimps is a good one that's not full of all the political stuff.

Sam Winchester · 07-12-2008, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malone

Since you seem to like fantasy, try the Wheel of Times series. Great one on one combat in that one.

Also, many of Tom Clancy's books have good combat descriptions. The on with Mr. Clark getting revenge on the pimps is a good one that's not full of all the political stuff.

Without Remorse, Malone. Cracking read. His best other than Clear and Present Danger, in my opinion.

WriterDude · 07-15-2008, 05:36 AM

Hi there.

If you are interested in combat, I suggest reading a few Dragonlance novels (like those by Richard Knaak, who you might have heard about...) and a few Warhammer novels. I strongly suggest the Gotrek & Felix novels (get the omnibuses) as they are all about one dwarf trying to die a heroic death and a human following him to record everything in a book. It's pretty graphic at times and all-out combat against pretty much anything that moves.

JHB · 07-15-2008, 06:00 AM

The Forgotten Realms books own the ones from both Dragonlance and Warhammer. Try them instead.

I must have at least a hundred FR books in my collection right now...

WriterDude · 07-15-2008, 06:26 PM

Heh, I have over a hundred Dragonlance books in my collection and several more in the mail, as well as several Warhammer novels.

seigfried007 · 07-15-2008, 06:46 PM

R. A.Salvatore is pretty good for swordplay (even though I hate reading him, lots of other people love him).

If you describe the different stances of budo and let the reader become familiar with the terms one at a time, the reader shouldn't have a problem.

BoredMormon · 07-15-2008, 06:48 PM

I like combat. While I am partial to massive large armies I do like a little sword play as well.

A typical technique to using the technical moves is to name just one or two, and have the hero learn these in training. Then the reader is already familiar with the moves when they get into combat. Its perfectly aceptable to cover hours of combat in a few sentances, then drop into detail for the final few critical seconds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Honjo

So-and-so dropped into chudan no kamae, swiping for his enemy's wrist in a rapid ura gote cut

Does anyone actually fight like that? I have done a little martial arts, and it seems to me that you only ever worry about the actual forms when you are training. When you are in combat you don't think 'he is throwing an amada with his right leg, I will hola to the left. You just move and hope your muscels remember your training. Something to think about if your writing is about the actual fighters.

Hope my ramblings helped.
BM out

WriterDude · 07-16-2008, 04:10 AM

I agree with BoredMormon. Don't use too many technical terms. I've been studying kyukushinkai several years and reached 5 kyu or so before I quit, but how many of you know what I'm talking about?

Besides, I think combat in a story should reflect how it is in real life to a degree. (just add one part "fun").

It's fast, simple and to the point. If you are training, you think a lot about what each stance is called, what each punch is called, how to block a punch and all that. In a real fight, however, things change a lot. This time you are not fighting for practice, but to avoid getting hurt or killed. This changes the rules complately, so anything goes. He steps into a chudan no kama and tries to hit you with a ura gota cut? You kick him where it hurts and run like hell to get backup.

Darkness · 07-16-2008, 05:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seigfried007

R. A.Salvatore is pretty good for swordplay (even though I hate reading him, lots of other people love him).

If you describe the different stances of budo and let the reader become familiar with the terms one at a time, the reader shouldn't have a problem.

This would have to be the best and safest way to do it. I also suggest a glossary of terms at the rear of the book. I have read novels with a glossary in them before and while you may need or want to refer to it, I don't find it a strenuous activity.

Honjo · 07-16-2008, 04:16 PM

Hi again, and thanks for all your suggestions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoredMormon

Does anyone actually fight like that? I have done a little martial arts, and it seems to me that you only ever worry about the actual forms when you are training. When you are in combat you don't think 'he is throwing an amada with his right leg, I will hola to the left. You just move and hope your muscels remember your training. Something to think about if your writing is about the actual fighters.

Hope my ramblings helped.
BM out

Hi again, and thanks for all your suggestions.
I understand what you mean, but from a writers standpoint it would be incredibly complex to attempt to describe every movement or technique accurately without boring the reader with dull, often unremarkable descriptions of specific techniques and manoeuvres. Most readers won’t know exactly what a middle-guard looks like, or for that matter the difference between kote, ura-gote, or other untold skills displayed in combat.
It’s all fair and good to say (So-and-so took up a stance and then swiped for his enemy’s wrist, lopping it off with a single fell swoop) but that doesn’t reflect the martial mentality of two combatants either. Nobody really thinks much during a serious battle situation, this is true for training and actual combat. And what if both combatants are of a relatively high skill level, in which case they shouldn’t be thinking at all. My point is, while it would be unusual for a fighter to think like this, (So-and-so dropped into chudan no kamae, swiping for his enemy's wrist in a rapid ura gote cut) other more broad descriptions of techniques wouldn’t actually necessarily be actually going on either, since writing is often subjective. One may write about the appearance of a room, or the sight from the veranda, but that doesn’t mean the character in question is necessarily thinking about those things, he’s just aware of them.
Terminology, but perhaps in moderation, seems like a much more accurate method of describing the ins-and-outs of serious battle, rather then rough descriptions.
If anyone has any other suggestions please feel free to post, since I’ve already looked into a number of books mentioned here, but it would be nice to hear a few more personal preferences for how others approach this sort of thing in their writing. Do you paint a gritty, violent picture of battle, or do you tend to slide towards the more fantastic, romantic view of these things?

R.J. · 07-17-2008, 02:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Honjo

So my question is, does anyone know of another author who has attempted this, and to what success, if any? In all the books I mentioned above I can only find one account where there is an attempt at using any semblance of terminology whatsoever...

Try 'The Ninja' by Eric Lustbader. He uses Ninjitsu terminology heavily in his 'action' sequences. Might be a good reference to see how he pulled it off, and whether you get lost reading it or not.

I am not a martial artist, but there seems to be two schools of thought throughout this thread: 'technical fighting', based on form and technique; and 'street fighting', based on function and achieving a victory through physicality.

If your preference is technical, try applying strategy to your sequence. Be the choreographer for your combatants, and plot out the moves in your head in advance i.e. if character one moves one way, what options does character two have, and what is he/she potentially setting themself up for by attacking or defending?

It might give the reader the impression that each move is calculated ahead of time, perhaps like a chess match. They will read each parry and blow with anticipation to see who remains standing at the end.

If your preference is more 'street', throw the form out the window and go for the function (as WriterDude succinctly put it, 'you kick him where it hurts and run like hell to get backup!')

Anyway, just some thoughts. You have gotten me thinking though, 'how would I write a fight scene?' Could be a good exercise for the mind...

stereomuse · 07-17-2008, 11:34 AM

george rr martin has some of the best realistic battles ive read. if youve never read it check out his song of ice and fire series. The BEST books ive ever read, including genres outside of fantasy. He uses enough common fencing terms to give you the best image of the fight and not confuse you at the same time with words that no one knows. He puts the perfect emotions into a fight when necessary: fear, anger, hate.... a cant even praise him enough, just pick up his books and thank the universe youre lucky enough to be reading something of this caliber.