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    An Amazon book store has been added to the site. You should see a new button link added to the main toolbar. If any active members have work published on Amazon and would like it included please send Cran a PM with details.

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    MENTOR ADMINISTRATOR Poetry, Children's Stories, Non-Fiction, Photography and Blogging


    CHIEF MENTOR Fiction, especially, Sci-Fi and Fantasy.
    Born in 1978, work at a college. I've had a lifelong battle with OCD which has given me an interest in how the mind works. I'll show up from time to time in most places, but particularly the SF&F forum. I'm quite good at spotting grammar and spelling mistakes in other people's work, so feel free to ask me if you'd like me to check for those.

    in the flame

    SENIOR MENTOR Poetry, Prose, Fiction I'm Julia, I am active in the Poetry thread, I visit the prose and fiction thread when interested. Hope this helps. Peace always...Julia

    St. Louis, Missouri
    US Central

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    ADVANCED MENTOR Areas of interest are mostly science fiction and mystery writing, with a deep knowledge of world building and novel writing. Raised on golden age science fiction, Patrick Bishop is the king of camp, the master of melodrama, and the one man who can bring enjoyable, pulp sci-fi back to the masses!


    SENIOR MENTOR Prose and Poetry
    I enjoy literary fiction, fantasy and some historical fiction.
    I am a devoted Christian and own an art gallery with my father.

    Kitchener, Ontario.


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    ADVANCED MENTOR Poetry, Short Prose and Stories, Non-Fiction.

    Reading and writing interests deliberately eclectic with a slant toward poetry, short prose and stories, non-fiction. Enjoy critiquing, editing out excess words.

    I have developed more of an interest in novels via WF and though I am co-writing one with another forum member I am by no means ready to take one on myself at this point. I also have an active interest in photography and cooking and am open to pretty well anything that may happen along.
    Male, retired, Canadian.

    Post secondary education BSc. (mostly Chemistry.) No real foreign language knowledge aside from four years of French in high school and a little Latin which I was not really very interested in or very good at. I spent most of my working life in factories (one 23 years) and am somewhat inclined toward the scientific, mathematical and mechanical side.

    I like to cruise the forums with "Latest posts" and just latch onto anything that catches my eye. I probably spend most of my time on 'Poetry', 'Poetry Discussion', 'Writers Discussion' as well as word games and the social/procrastination threads. My guess, I actually have not been keeping track.

    I have very much enjoyed and value my experience at Writing Forums. It has both focused my energies as well as expanded my horizons. I enjoy doing critiques especially if they involve pruning and cutting things down to size. I had never really realized how opinionated I am on some issues and that i actually share them with many other people. I am in a perpetual struggle to keep up with the whole scene but over time i do manage to get things straightened out.



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    MENTOR Forums: Poetry/Short stories/Humour/short Non-Fiction/Children's Stories. I'm interested in science, psychology, philosophy and life and interacting with other writers - old and new.
    I have some experience in writing stories and humour for magazines and newspapers but I'm currently concentrating on writing poetry.

    Dallas TX USA GMT +6
    (USA Central)

    MENTOR My writing interest is Historical Fiction/Thriller
    I am currently working on a Novel about the first 3 years of Reagan's term. As I say the characters and adventuress are fiction but the history behind them is very real. It took me 2 years of research six months of planning to fit the historical time line and the literary time line together. I hope this book grows up to be a series.

    Due to the use of historical figures that are still alive I am shooting for traditional publishing.

    I am in my mid 50's and started my adult life in the military. I served during the cold war (USMC) and moved to the civilian sector in 1989. After the military I worked in transportation management to support my hobbies of rock climbing and study of history.
    MENTOR Thrillers and general fiction, grammar and punctuation, word usage, style, human behaviour, creativity, telling a good story. I am an American ex-pat who has spent the last thirty years in Britain, first in England and now in the Northeast of Scotland where I live with my Scottish wife (long story) and Dilbert, her Chocolate Labrador.

    Through the years I wrote a few short stories and started several novels that were never finished. These for good reason because they were dire both in concept and style.

    Since retirement I have enough time and freedom from distractions to write full time. I enjoy the process - well, most of the time. A few years back I completed The Bureau of Happiness, a contemporary conspiracy thriller. It is up on Kindle and has had limited success.

    Following this I created Os Doran, Close Protection Security Consultant who goes about the country, usually Britain, right wrongs, despatching evil bad guys, rescuing damsels in distress, etc. I have completed two Os Doran books and have started on the third. These are all contemporary political thrillers.

    My objectives for creating a series were two: first, to see if I could develop consistency from one book to the next and, second, to see if I could interest an agent and subsequent publisher under the assumption these folks would see more commercial potential in a series. Thus I'm currently actively looking for an agent.
    Fiction, Non-Fiction, Romance, Satire, YA Literature, Poetry, Short Stories, Beta Reading, Current Events, Blogging Anthony is an experienced retail associate with a background in customer service, sales, and marketing. After earning his B.A. in Political Science from the University of Connecticut in 2012, Anthony pursued a dating and relationship WordPress blog with personal modern dating stories and useful tips to find love. As a substitute teacher and bilingual tutor, his passion for literature, cultures and languages in Middle Eastern and European studies has greatly benefited many of his students. Anthony is actively participating in the Members Only Workshops, Members Together Workshops, like The Beta Readers Collective and Verse threads. He is also hanging out in the Writing Forums' Groups section. Anthony offers constructive criticism with in depth critiques to assist aspiring novelists, like himself, with an extra set of keen eyes.
    Kingston, Ontario, Canada.
    Eastern (EST) (UTC−5)

    MENTOR Poetry, Short Stories, Fiction.
    I'm a twenty-five year-old who is planning to go to university for his B.A soon. I've written a few novels so far, but they have gone unpublished. I'm currently working on another one and am 75,000 words in. I also write short stories and poetry. I enjoy all genres and forms of poetry, short stories and fiction.
    Yorkshire, UK
    MENTOR Fantasy, steampunk/gaslamp fantasy, sci-fi, weird fiction/grotesques
    I started writing in earnest in around 2011, at which time I realised all the thoughts and ideas taking up space in my head suddenly had a natural home - prior to that writing was something "other people did"! I am just about finished with my first novel and starting on the second, and in between I write flash fiction, mostly for various competitions and although it is clearly "not my time yet", every now and again I submit one for publication. I enjoy smart, evocative use of language and that tends to feed into my critiques, fabolously well-imagined worlds, and characters that I have to meet. Left to my own devices, I would without doubt descend into dreadful grammar pedantry. Crikey, I feel like I'm writing an agent bio.

    My background is in technology. I have a Bachelors's in computer science and work in IT and Telecoms. The amount of overnight work that demands means the bulk of my writing gets done between the hours of 11PM and 4AM, which explains alot. Aside from that I do a fair bit of tinkering and geeking out on the side when I'm not staring at my MS or out on my bike. I am married with two wonderful daughters, both of whom will be better writers than me.
     Number of Views: 4192 

    Writing Forums Newsletter Message ...
    by Published on April 22nd, 2014 11:08 PM

    New Member FAQs

    Q - I've just joined and I can't edit my profile/add a signature/fix my avatar. What should I do?
    Like all sites of this type, we suffer attacks from spammers. Therefore, it is necessary to become active on the site before some features are available. New non-subscribing members will find that there are some restrictions relating to user profiles, signatures and avatars, messaging and posting new topics; these restrictions are temporary and are lifted once ten (10) valid posts have been made. (Da Rules)

    Q - I've just joined to tell you about this amazing new product/service/website. Where do I place my ad?
    Advertising of any kind without specific admin approval is prohibited on the main boards. You are allowed to link to your site in your signature once you have made the required amount of posts.

    Members are allowed to link to their outside work or other website in their signature once they have access to signature options. Members (with more than ten valid posts) are also encouraged to add their blog or website page to the Blogroll, and to promote any of their online work or achievements in Beyond the Forum.

    Motley Tavern members (ie, Friends of WF, Veterans, Patrons and staff) may post threads which promote their work in the Literary Emporium. Those with books (or other creative artworks) for sale may also request that they be added to the bookshop.

    Motley Tavern members who are professional publishers, writers, artists or illustrators, proofreaders or editors, may offer or discuss their services only within the Motley Tavern or other Admin-designated area. Anything else will be considered spam and deleted. Spammers may be banned from the site without notice. (Da Rules)

    NB – This rule has been modified.

    Q - Why was the link to my blog/website/cool site to check out removed from my Introduction post?
    Introduction posts are for introducing a new member as a person to our community; they are not platforms for promotion of anything else.

    One severe infraction that new members often fall foul of is spamming. Adding a link to an outside website, whether it is the member's own blog page, Amazon page, or a third party site, in an Introduction post is treated as spam. Don't do it. You can add these sorts of links to your signature as soon as you have progressed from new member to regular member. (Da Rules)

    Q - I want to post some of my writing but I can't start a new thread. What's wrong?
    New non-subscribing members with a post count of less than ten (10) cannot post new topics on the creative forums. Fluff (superfluous single word, or non-contributing) posts made just to build up post count may be deleted. Please be aware that posts on the Word Games forum are not added to post counts. New members who have also paid the subscriber's fee to become a Friend of WF are not subject to these restrictions. (Da Rules)

    Q - What happens to my copyright if I post my work here?
    Nothing. Copyright is automatic and vested the instant the original created work is set in a recordable form, and is renewed whenever the original creator of the work effects any change to that work.

    An idea is not protected by copyright; copyright protects only the unique and original presentation of that idea once produced in a tangible or recordable form.

    "Anytime that you create a creative, copyrightable work and it is fixed on a tangible medium (ie, paper, videotape, etc...) it is copyrighted. You don't have to register the work to have copyright protection, although registration brings other benefits such as the immediate right to sue and potential statutory damages, notwithstanding actual damages. So in sum, once you create it, it is copyright protected." - FindLaw for Legal Professionals | Law & Legal Information (http://lp.findlaw.com/)

    Q - If I post my artwork, story or poem here, does that mean I'm "published"?

    Good question.

    We suggest that if you plan to submit your work to an agent or publisher, then you should consider posting in the Members' Only Workshops. If your work is a novel, then only post excerpts rather than entire chapters.

    The advice from the author’s submission service, Writer’s Relief is -
    Is work considered previously published if I post it on a blog, Web site, large social-networking site, or online literary journal?
    If you’ve posted your writing on any of the above sites, it is generally considered previously published.

    Is my work considered previously published if I post it in a writing forum or Web board?
    If the forum or Web board is private and intended for the purposes of encouraging feedback or community support, then most editors and literary agents will consider the work unpublished. But just in case, you may want to take it down once you’ve received feedback so it doesn’t appear online.

    If the forum in question is public (that is, if nonmembers can see what you’ve written), then your work will likely be considered previously published...

    Generally speaking, it’s okay to publish excerpts online, as long as they are on the short side (relative to the work in question). - Writer’s Relief (http://writersrelief.com/blog/2013/1...ished-writing/)

    The situation for artworks, according to AIGSF* –
    Unfortunately, there is no consensus yet on whether posting a work online qualifies as a legal “publication.” The Copyright Office has refused to offer an opinion. Some people think posting online qualifies as publication because it allows multiple people in multiple locations to view the work at the same time, which is analogous to print publication. Also, in fact your computer technically makes a “copy” of the work when it displays the web page…

    However, the law is clear that unauthorized copying does not count as a legal publication. Therefore, if you post your work with a copyright notice (and, for good measure, a clear statement that it may not be copied without your permission), there’s a good argument that you have not made copies of your work available to the public, and thus your posting is not a legal “publication.”

    An illustration that’s been posted online for the purposes of peer review and critique doesn’t affect the marketplace for printed books. You have not given anyone a license to print the illustration in a commercial way, and there will be nothing out there in the marketplace to compete with the publisher’s book. Thus I don’t understand why publishers would consider such online postings to be a problem, especially if it is a relatively private forum, as opposed to on your website where the entire public can view it. In my practice, I have not personally encountered such an objection from a publisher. - AIGSF*

    * The San Francisco chapter of AIGA, the professional association for design, is one of the largest and most active in the country, representing over 1,600 designers in graphics, interaction, experience, motion, and affiliated fields in the Greater Bay Area.

    Q - How do I paste my work from Word without messing up the formatting?
    When pasting from Word, the best way is to use the [Go Advanced] option - bottom right of the dialog box.

    Above the Advanced version of the dialog box, you'll find extra options, including the clipboard with W (paste from Word) which tries to incorporate as close as possible the font and formatting of the original Word piece. The standard paste (text only) will miss some format codes as it pastes - lost spaces between words are most likely from text code word wraps to fit the window, which are not carried into the final paste-up.

    Below the advanced dialog box, you'll find more options, including [Disable smilies in text] which is very handy if your work includes brackets. (Cran)

    Q - Can I post my work/thread in more than one board? How do I decide which is the best board for my post/thread?
    In almost all situations, duplicate posts are not allowed. Pick the most appropriate forum and post your item there. No cross posting, spamming or any kind of multiple posts will be allowed. We will delete all but one of any duplicate posts. As is true with plagiarism, paraphrasing is not a valid loophole; paraphrased posts are still copies and will be treated as such. An exception to this rule relates to challenge entries which may be pre-posted or re-posted in an appropriate creative forum for individual critique and comment. (Da Rules)

    Q - No one has replied to my post. Can I "bump" it?
    It is our policy to discourage members from posting just to bring their thread back to the top of the front page. If a thread is bumped without a valid reason then it, or the offending post, may be deleted. (Da Rules)

    If you are unsure whether your reason to bump is valid, ask a Mentor or Moderator.

    Q - I just found a great thread in the back pages, and want to revive it. Is that OK?
    Yes. Just because society now runs on a 24 hour news cycle and last week is ancient history, the stories, poems, essays, discussions and artworks need not be treated like the magazines in your doctor’s waiting room.

    However, if you intend to revive a thread then you are obliged to make a real contribution to the thread; otherwise it would be better to just click Like or LOL and move on. The practice of “thread necromancy” with “fluff” posts is universally frowned upon. (Cran)

    Q - How do I stop getting an email notification every time someone posts a reply where I've posted something?
    Click on Settings (top of page, between profile and log out), left sidebar, scroll down to General Settings (under email and password) - scroll down to Messaging & Notification, Default Thread Subscription Mode: and click on the dropdown arrow, select "through my control panel only" or "do not subscribe" (your choice).

    If you want to totally unsubscribe from a lot of threads you've posted in, scroll back up the left sidebar to Subscriptions, tick the threads you don't want to be subscribed to, scroll down to below the list, click the [selected threads] button and select [delete subscription] - there are also options here for altering notification modes for individual subscribed threads (so that if you want instant email notification of your own threads but not other people's, you can make that distinction via this option).

    For future individual thread choices of notification that differ from your chosen default, before posting a reply, Go Advanced, and scroll down to the options below the dialog box. In Subscription, you'll see your default setting; change it to your preferred option. (Cran)

    Q - I've forgotten my password. Can I just start a new account? How many accounts can I have?
    Multiple accounts (sock puppets) are not permitted. Only sign up for one account. If you share a computer or internet connection with a roommate or partner, please inform us or we may suspect you of having duplicate accounts and all but one will be deleted. (Da Rules)

    If you have forgotten your password, use the Contact Us link at the bottom of the page to request a password to be sent to your account’s nominated email address.

    Q - If I decide I don't like it here, can I delete my account?
    No. You can edit your posts, and your profile page. Don’t bother asking for your account to be deleted; the answer will be “No”.

    Q - I don't like the replies I'm getting. Can I report them?
    You are encouraged to report posts which breach the Rules, especially those which fall under -

    Flaming: Flaming will not be tolerated. When critiquing, keep observations about the work, do not make inflammatory personal judgments of or attacks on the writer. In any discussion, keep it about the topic and not the poster. Violations will be deleted. Repeated offenses or ignoring staff warnings will result in an infraction.

    Trolling or Baiting: Unnecessarily contentious posts, or posts intended to incite flaming, will not be tolerated. Offending posts will be removed, and the poster warned in the first instance. Repeated offenses will result in the poster being temporarily or permanently banned. Posts which attack, demean, or breach the international standards against unfair discrimination of any person or group of people will be treated as baits.

    Hijacking or Derailing: If you want to discuss something other than the topic posted without the Opening Poster's (OP's) express permission, start your own discussion thread. Hijacking or derailing a discussion is a form of online bullying, and is not tolerated. This does not apply to asides, quips, or humorous interjections. (Da Rules)

    Q - I'm being harassed by another member. What should I do?

    If you feel you have been contacted inappropriately please report it to a staff member immediately. We are a site catering to members from age thirteen years and older and we ask that everyone behave accordingly. All complaints will be taken seriously and will be investigated with appropriate action taken. We will not tolerate false claims any more than we will tolerate inappropriate behavior.

    To handle these issues, please keep copies of any alleged complaints and forward them to a moderator or administrator. Do not post about this publicly as these are private issues. All public posts regarding these issues will be deleted.

    Defamation: Do not post or transmit any message which may be considered slanderous, libelous, or in any other way defamatory, or which discloses private or personal matters concerning any person other than yourself. Understand that, in law, truth is not necessarily a defence in matters involving defamation. Any such posts found will be edited or deleted without prior notice. (Da Rules)

    Q - How do I change my username?
    Usernames will not be changed unless there is a legitimate reason for them to be (simply not liking it any longer doesn't qualify), so choose them carefully. (Da Rules)

    Q - I live in a free society. Why do I have to know and follow the Rules?
    There is no society so free that it doesn’t have rules or laws to maintain it. Again, as in all societies, ignorance – “I didn’t know” – is not a valid defence against breaches. (Cran)

    Q - This is a public forum. Where's the democracy, and what about my rights?
    Actually, it’s a privately owned forum, and your individual rights are no lesser or greater than the rights of every other individual who chooses to be here. (Cran)

    Q - How do I become a Friend or a Veteran or a Patron?
    To become a Friend of WF (FoWF), you only need to subscribe via PayPal; if you don’t have or don’t want to use a PayPal account, you can use the Donate option but you will also need to contact the Owner or an Administrator to confirm the payment and initiate your subscription.

    To become a Veteran, you will need to be nominated and seconded by at least two Motley Tavern members; ie, other Veterans, Friends, Patrons or staff members. Bribes of chocolate chip cookies, foot rubs, and the like have been attempted in the past, but there is no record of success.

    To become a Patron, you have to either buy the forum and/or become a bored member, err, board member (retired) but opt to visit now and then for the perks, glory, or the chance outbreak of psychotic kittens. (Cran)

    Q - What is a Mentor?
    Mentors, as the name suggests, are friendly helpful guides of WF. Think of a hotel concierge, ready to give directions and help out hotel guests with finding the best of everything. Mentors have shown themselves to be knowledgeable and often go above and beyond to help others. (J Anfinson)

    Mentors are, to quote the Batman, “the best of us”. Mentors are members who have “been there”, who understand many of the real life and online issues that members, especially new members, have to deal with. A Mentor might not have all the answers, but will know how to find them. A Mentor is not a cop, but something of a role model. (Cran)

    Q - I want to join the staff. Who do I apply to?

    Staff members are selected by The Board-- consisting of administrators, supervisors, and chief mentors. The heads of each hierarchy-- Supervisors for moderators and Chief Mentors for mentors -- are actively searching the membership pool on a daily basis for those with the right qualities. If you consistently demonstrate the qualities they are looking for, then a board member will contact you at the appropriate time. (J Anfinson)
    by Published on August 2nd, 2013 03:08 AM

    [originally posted by Olly Buckle in The Writers' Lounge]

    Piglet's Picks

    Some of these are good threads, some good posts, they are all things which strike us as useful, or at least worth a look at.

    Beware some contain off-site links over which we have no control, follow them on your own initiative.

    I have called it “Piglet’s picks” because Piglet from Portugal has done most of the grunt work (Blame amsawtell for the pun, it was to good to miss) seeking out these posts, thank you PiP. I have simply put them in order of the boards on which they appear.

    If you see anything you think worthy of adding to this list please post it below or notify me of it and I will edit it in.

    Keep an eye on the thread, people are passing stuff on all the time, a new post is usually a new link, go to the post and you will not have to read through the list to see what's new since you last looked.

    Posting and Critiquing
    The Dark Art Of Posting
    Need a Critique?
    Strange Uncle George's Tips and Tactics
    Reviewers' Handbook

    Techie Stuff
    How to make symbols with keyboard.
    Stuff You May Not Know How To Do
    Formatting for Kindle DeMystified

    Writers' Resources
    Plagiarism, copyrighting, and trademarks
    Copyright Basics
    Writing Advice from Thirty Published Authors
    World Building Interview
    D.I.Y Publishing

    Writing - Hints and Tips
    Homonym confusions!
    Advice to those writing long stories(especially if using multiple POV's)
    Clear and Concise
    Compound Adjectives
    Letters of Note: You've got to sell your heart
    World Building Interview
    The Balance between Detail and Imagination (This is a thread from writing discussions about balance in a piece, there are some excellent replies throughout, but post 18 determined it's place here.)

    Poetic Discussion - Hints and Tips
    On critiques and replies
    Basics of Free Verse Poetry
    What the reader expects
    Teach me Metaphor
    Writing A Poem Based On A Picture
    Rules for poetry

    Other Useful Resources (off-site)
    Perfect Pitch (Book Publishers Accepting Submissions by Category)
    A Guide to Rhetoric
    A Guide to Verse Forms aimed at the would-be Poet/
    Dealing with rejection by famous authors
    Encyclopedia of Mythology (should be useful to fantasy writers)

    [Reorganised by the original Piglet, PiP]
     Number of Views: 30292 


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    Guide to Staff Ranks

    For new members of any site, it can be a daunting experience when you don't know the customs of the forum you've just joined. Most places encourage members to contact the staff if they have queries, but when you have sixty staff members and a dozen different ranks to choose from, where the heck do you even start?

    Sure, you could pull out a set of dice and select one staff member completely at random, but how often does that work? Or maybe you'll hover over the list of names, close your eyes,
    by Published on July 24th, 2013 05:22 PM

    (originally posted by Sam and garza)

    Sam: It's a little complicated, but here goes:

    First, use the square brackets to start. [ Next, type the letters 'url=www.writingforums.com' ...
    by Published on July 24th, 2013 05:15 PM
    Article Preview

    (Originally posted by moderan)

    It's pretty simple-the forum software has the facility.

    Simply select the posts to answer, using the icon at the extreme lower right of ...
    by Published on July 24th, 2013 04:41 AM

    (First Posted by Bazz Cargo)

    The Dark Art Of Posting.


    Gleaned from the steady application of making mistakes,
    by Published on July 24th, 2013 04:30 AM

    (Edited from a post by eleutheromaniac)

    Copyright Basics

    An idea is not protected by copyright; copyright protects only the unique and original presentation of that idea once produced in a tangible or recordable form.

    "Anytime that you create a creative, copyrightable work and it is fixed on a tangible medium (ie, paper, videotape, etc...) it is copyrighted. You don't have to register the work to have copyright protection, although registration brings other benefits such as the immediate right to sue and potential statutory damages, notwithstanding actual damages. So in sum, once you create it, it is copyright protected." - FindLaw for Legal Professionals | Law & Legal Information

    See Also:
    Fair Usage or Theft (Mike C)

    Copyright term and Public Domain. Note: Just because something is considered public domain shouldn't give one the right to pillage it at will without giving some due credit to the original source. Call it 'Writer's Etiquette'.

    U.S. Copyright Office

    UK Copyright law

    Austrialian Copyright law

    Canadian Copyright

    PS - You can make the copyright symbol by holding down alt and then typing 0169 on the number pad.
    by Published on April 11th, 2013 12:19 AM

    Strange Uncle George's Tips and Tactics
    For The Literary Maneuvers Contest

    Hi, I'm George ...
    by Published on April 6th, 2013 01:54 PM

    This site looks pretty good, sounds like the person is a literary agent and offers links to information.
    I have only ...
    by Published on April 6th, 2013 01:45 PM

    Ex-RAAF engineering officer, and Australian fiction writer, Peter McLennan owns and manages The Australian Writers' Forum.
    • The forum is for fiction and non-fiction writers
    by Published on December 1st, 2012 02:21 PM

    Voting threads have closed for the poetry and fiction entries in the Anniversary Challenge.

    Anniversary Challenge ...
    by Published on November 23rd, 2012 01:42 PM

    Another Corporate Takeover

    A big thank you to everyone who participated and
    by Published on November 6th, 2012 08:30 PM

    I made this Squidoo lens to help self-published authors market their work for free by utilizing the many sites out there ...
    by Published on November 1st, 2012 04:38 AM

    Another Corporate Takeover

    Reminder of the prizes awarded to the winner. ...
    by Published on October 27th, 2012 10:14 PM

    Our guest on the 8th November will be Marsha Friedman.

    For the past 23 years, Marsha has been at the helm
    by Published on October 27th, 2012 12:49 AM

    Another huge turnout! I would like to apologise for the delay in getting these scores out. I just came back from a weeks ...