Kinbote

I read The Stranger last year, so I'll chip in.

I loved the idea behind the novel, but the prose was simply serviceable. I think this is typical of Camus actually, I find him more of a philosopher than a writer.

In regards to the murder, as I remember it, Meursault was completely without intent (though he did take the gun and return to the scene). Was it not a reflex to being blinded by the sun?

It got me thinking about the lies people tell themselves, and those that society perpetuate. The final scene is indicative of this; Meursault is incensed by the priest who asks him to confess before his execution, but to Meursault (and Camus) belief in God is an absurdism that doesn't fit with the observed reality. Meursault finds comfort in embracing his insignificance.

Sorry if it's a bit obtuse, Camus discusses this in 'The Myth of Sisyphus'. His Paradox of the Absurd is a little negative for me to be honest.

K.

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And if you don’t understand it, I can’t explain it – Sole

geminye

Kinbote, welcome. Yes, he did shoot him after being blinded by the sun. So far, the story does seem to be primarily a vehicle for the extrapolation of Camus' thoughts on philosophy. Does that negate the story? Or, does it give it more meaning? I do agree the actual writing technique is just a means to an end. Perhaps this is a result of the translation, but I doubt it.

Without having finished the book yet (thanks for the spoiler Kinbote!! lol) the narrative feels fragmented. There were images which interested me, but on the whole, its leaving me very apathetic. I will skim back through to find the imagery which appeals to me, but i don't think there will be much in the way of poetic language that stirs my creative soul.

There certainly is a surreal quality to the story. Not so much as if you were to turn a Dali painting into a short story, but it certainly has a touch of absurdity to it that lends a dreamlike quality to it. It reminds me vaguely of a Kafka tale.

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Suffer the little children...

moderan

Hmm. I'm trying to consider the book without referring to any of Camus' other work, which hasn't been designated as an assignment here. The prose is workmanlike on purpose, I think, to establish the narrator's voice. I don't doubt that you'll find a scarcity of high-flown imagery in the novel as that doesn't seem to be Camus' purpose. I read it in the original French some years ago and there wasn't a lot of poesy in it even in that most poetic of languages.
The similarities to K_ or Joseph K_ could be simply a result of translation, or they could be intentional. I should think it's the former, but I have no data to base that supposition on. I have only a passing acquaintance with Kafka's mother tongue.
The interesting part of part one to me was that Meursault originally didn't like Raymond very much, but then he took up with him completely and seemed to entirely quell any misgivings he had originallly. A character with no convictions, willing to be pushed one way or the other as the wind blows. Having free will, but entirely refusing to use it. I found that a very weird auteurial tactic originally and still do. There it does seem as if Camus is manipulating the story purely to espouse his personal philosophies, in a more egregious fashion than most writers, who will impart bits of their own beliefs in the text through the act of writing anyway.

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Kinbote

Sorry geminye, didn't realise you hadn't finished it!

Interesting that you both make a connection with Kafka, I read The Stranger back to back with The Trial last year. I don't think there are too many similarities beyond their literal events - in both cases the individual is persecuted by society. I think that Camus and Kafka had completely different intentions however.

I much preferred The Trial of the two by the way, despite it being unfinished.

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And if you don’t understand it, I can’t explain it – Sole

geminye

No worries Kinbote. Just giving you a hard time!

I also prefer The Trial. Yet, there is certainly something about the language he uses which easily enables me to visualize what is occurring.

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Suffer the little children...

Kinbote

If I recall rightly, he writes very matter of factly. Is that the reason for this lucidity, or is there something else to it?

The whole character of Meursault for me was so passive, I don't think he had an opinion on anything. He wasn't so much a fleshed-out character, as much as the reader's window to the world. This was intentional on Camus' part, but it made it hard to relate.

As an aside, was there a subplot involving Meursault's neighbour and his dog? That comes to mind for some reason.

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And if you don’t understand it, I can’t explain it – Sole

moderan

Yes, Mssr. Salamano and his mangy dog...which served as an introduction to Raymond, Meursault's other neighbor.
Camus introduced those characters the day after the funeral. He says that the man and the dog look somewhat similar and that the man mistreats the dog, who is mangy.
This is before Raymond, after a dinner of blood sausage and wine, gets Meursault to act as an accomplice by writing the letter. At the end of that scene, as he is returning to his rooms, Meursault hears the dog whimpering.
The dog runs away during the next chapter, in which the conspiracy between Raymond and Meursault deepens (a police encounter after Raymond beats his girl, going out to play pool). It almost seems as if the dog is symbolic of Meursault's reason, which is on the verge of deserting him as he gets further involved with Raymond. The last vestige of Meursault's usage of his own free will is foregoing a visit to a whorehouse.

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geminye

So, we've established that the actual prose itself is lacking, whether due to the translation or not, but there may be underlying symbolism which makes the story itself more attractive to the reader.

Can we say then, that one can make up for deficiencies in writing ability with a well structured plot/theme? I would certainly think it would help. Thoughts?

Moderan, love the idea of the dog symbolizing his free will.

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Suffer the little children...

moderan

I wouldn't say that the prose is lacking, more that it is journalistic rather than novelistic. However I do believe that subtext can make a story more attractive. The second point, well, there are enough examples of that around to buy into it, if by writing ability you mean facility with verbiage and sentence construction. You can also get past that deficiency with a well-defined or memorable character. Not that Meursault is a particularly memorable character in this case.

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geminye

Right, point taken. So, perhaps Camus takes the apathetic nature of his character and extends it into the style as well?

I do agree a memorable character makes for a more intriguing story. Especially, memorable villains.

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moderan

I think the style is deliberately colorless.

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geminye

So, at this point, is there any one, or a few things we can point to which makes this story "good," or a "classic" in the sense that it remains within popular fiction? As far as the plot is concerned, the events are more or less ordinary. A man's mother dies, he copes, meets a woman, makes an unsavory friend, then shoots someone. Perhaps its the surreal nature of his decision to kill a man which pulls the story out of danger of being mundane.

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moderan

I'd agree with the last point. The Stranger, to my mind, is more or less a distillation of noir principles. The matter-of-fact prose and heavy-on-the-senses detail, as well as the expression of a rather bleak existentialist philosophy, sit the work next to Hammett and Jim Thompson. As a vehicle for a conscious philosophy, it's probably superior. I don't think the noir writers set out to espouse their personal philosophies, most of them were just trying to make a buck. I would think a valid comparison could be made to Thompson's the Killer Inside Me, which isn't on our current reading list.
The Stranger is a good story but I don't think a great one. My take is that Camus' reputation and body of work buoyed it beyond similar (and arguably superior) pieces into the realm of "serious literature".

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geminye

Ok. Great! We're off to a good start, despite it only being the three of us so far! Lol. Anyway, let's set a deadline of 9/5 for discussion on the first part of teh book. Of course, we can still discuss it, but after the fifth, the emphasis will be on finishing the book (for those of us who haven't) and getting ready to focus on the second part.

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moderan

Sure. Shame that there's only a couple of us discussing though.

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