Is Harry Potter Literature? - Page 5 - Writers Forum

Mike C · 02-17-2008, 04:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mythologicalrealities

No, I can't think of anything I dislike more than 400 pages of characters 'saying' things.

And that confirmed it.

Just in case I was imagining things, I checked out my bookshelves. They're all the same. Hemingway, McEwan, Austen, Trollope, Hardy... Page after bloody page of characters saying things.

Actually, I'm impressed, mythologicalrealities - or can I call you myth? Many writers struggle for many years to convey ideas and concepts concisely. You've managed to convey, in just two sentences, the sheer depth and scale of your immense ignorance in a way that few others could.

Well done. You should be proud.

ClancyBoy · 02-17-2008, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mythologicalrealities

Any book that uses the word 'said' as much as Harry Potter does, is not literature.

Stay away from Faulkner then. Actually, stay away from books.

mythologicalrealities · 02-17-2008, 09:43 PM

Probably. I'm talented in that regard.
Just to clarify:

I only mind if the author uses no variation and characters JUST say things.

In my mind 'said' is a 'sometimes word'.
(and it's ok if there's something after it, like "I'm tired," said Billy, yawning.)

mythologicalrealities · 02-17-2008, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Just in case I was imagining things, I checked out my bookshelves. They're all the same. Hemingway, McEwan, Austen, Trollope, Hardy... Page after bloody page of characters saying things.

These authors never once say anything besides said?

I find that very hard to believe.

Faustling · 02-18-2008, 12:46 AM

I'm sure there's the occasional "shouted" and similar. Although I haven't read all of them (or all of their works) what I remember seems to agree with Clancy and Mike.

ClancyBoy · 02-18-2008, 03:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mythologicalrealities

In my mind 'said' is a 'sometimes word'.
(and it's ok if there's something after it, like "I'm tired," said Billy, yawning.)

I'm gonna have to agree with Mike, though I'll try to do so in a less confrontational way

Varying your dialogue tags the way you've described and sprinkling them with unnecessary adverbs is typically a feature of:
1) Fanfiction.
2) Young Adult fiction
3) Amateur fiction
4) 50's Noir

The writers who are considered great never ever do this. If you write well, your readers will know how you intend something to sound without you telling them.

To illustrate, here's a dialogue excerpt from To Kill a Mockingbird:

Quote:

“Do all lawyers defend n-Negroes, Atticus?”

“Of course they do, Scout.”

“Then why did Cecil say you defended niggers? He made it
sound like you were runnin’ a still.”

Atticus sighed. “I’m simply defending a Negro – his name’s Tom
Robinson. He lives in that little settlement beyond the town
dump. He’s a member of Calpurnia’s church, and Cal knows his
family well. She says they’re clean-living folks. Scout,
you aren’t old enough to understand yet, but there’s been
to the effect that I some things shouldn’t do much about
some high talk around town defending this man. It’s a peculiar
case – it won’t come to trial until summer session. John
Taylor was kind enough to give us a postponement…”

“If you shouldn’t be defendin’ him, then why are you doin’ it?”

“For a number of reasons,” said Atticus. “The main one is, if I
didn’t I couldn’t hold my head up in town, I couldn’t represent
this county in the legislature, I couldn’t even tell you or
Jem not to do something again.”

“You mean if you didn’t defend that man, Jem and me wouldn’t
have to mind you anymore?”

“That’s about right.”

“Why?”

“Because I could never ask you to mind me again. Scout, simply
by the nature of the work, every lawyer gets at least one
case in his lifetimethat affects him personally. This one’s
mine, I guess. You might hear some ugly talk about it at
school, but do one thing for me if you will: you just hold
your head high and keep those fists down. No matter what
anybody says to you, don’t let ‘em get your goat. Try
fighting with your head for a change…it’s a good one,
even if it does resist learning.”

As you can see, there is only one dialogue tag in the whole conversation, and it's "said." The rest of the time they aren't needed. Also note the lack of adverbs.

Now look at Faulkner. This is from The Sound and the Fury:

Quote:

"It's too cold out there." Versh said. "You dont want to go out doors."

"What is it now." Mother said.

"He want to go out doors." Versh said.

"Let him go." Uncle Maury said.

"It's too cold." Mother said. "He'd better stay in. Benjamin. Stop that, now."

"It wont hurt him." Uncle Maury said.

"You, Benjamin." Mother said. "If you don't be good, you'll have to go to the kitchen."

"Mammy say keep him out the kitchen today." Versh said. "She say she got all that cooking to get done."

"Let him go, Caroline." Uncle Maury said. "You'll worry yourself sick over him."

"I know it." Mother said. "It's a judgment on me. I sometimes wonder."

"I know, I know." Uncle Maury said. "You must keep your strength up. I'll make you a toddy."

"It just upsets me that much more." Mother said. "Dont you know it does."

"You'll feel better." Uncle Maury said. "Wrap him up good, boy, and take him out for a while."

Uncle Maury went away. Versh went away.

"Please hush." Mother said. "We're trying to get you out as fast as we can. I dont want you to get sick."

Versh put my overshoes and overcoat on and we took my cap and went out. Uncle Maury was putting the bottle away in the sideboard in the diningroom.

"Keep him out about half an hour, boy." Uncle Maury said. "Keep him in the yard, now."

"Yes, sir." Versh said. "We dont never let him get off the place."

We went out doors. The sun was cold and bright.

Enough said.

ClancyBoy · 02-18-2008, 03:33 AM

Actually, know what? I looked up some 50's noir to provide some counterexamples and boy was I surprised what I found.

Here's Vengeance is Mine by Mike Hammer:

Quote:

I palmed that short nosed .32 and laid it across his cheek with a crack that split the flesh open. He rocked back into his chair with his mouth hanging, drooling blood and saliva over his chin. I sat there smiling, but nothing was funny.

I said, "Rainey, you've forgotten something. You've forgotten that I'm not a guy that takes any crap. Not from anybody. You've forgotten I've been in business because I stayed alive longer than some guys who didn't want me that way. You've forgotten that I've had some punks tougher than you'll ever be on the end of a gun and I pulled the trigger just to watch their expressions change."

He was scared, but he tried to bluff it out anyway. He said, "Why don'tcha try it now, Hammer? Maybe it's different when ya don't have a license to use a rod. Go ahead, why don'tcha try it?"

He started to laugh at me when I pulled the trigger of the .32 and shot him in the thigh. He said, "My God!" under his breath and grabbed his leg. I raised the muzzle of the gun until he was looking right into the little round hole that was his ticket to hell.

"Dare me some more, Rainey."

Truth-Teller · 02-18-2008, 04:31 AM

Not as bad as Faulkner's.

In fact, I prefer Mike Hammer's story over the boring Mocking Bird.

Truth-Teller · 02-18-2008, 04:37 AM

Btw, Clancyboy, you were actually agreeing with Myth, not Mike.

Rofl.

ClancyBoy · 02-18-2008, 05:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Truth-Teller

Btw, Clancyboy, you were actually agreeing with Myth, not Mike.

Rofl.

Uh no I wasn't.

Mike C · 02-18-2008, 09:27 AM

Mockingbird's a great example of how you can use dialogue with 'said' or nothing. You never lose track of who's speaking. Great novel, too.

The Myth-alternative could have read something like:

Quote:

“Do all lawyers defend n-Negroes, Atticus?” Scout queried.

“Of course they do, Scout.” replied Atticus.

“Then why did Cecil say you defended niggers? He made it
sound like you were runnin’ a still.” interrupted Scout.

Atticus sighed. “I’m simply defending a Negro – his name’s Tom
Robinson. He lives in that little settlement beyond the town
dump. He’s a member of Calpurnia’s church, and Cal knows his
family well. She says they’re clean-living folks. Scout,
you aren’t old enough to understand yet, but there’s been
to the effect that I some things shouldn’t do much about
some high talk around town defending this man. It’s a peculiar
case – it won’t come to trial until summer session. John
Taylor was kind enough to give us a postponement…” Atticus explained wearily.

“If you shouldn’t be defendin’ him, then why are you doin’ it?” demanded scout.

“For a number of reasons, the main one is, if I
didn’t I couldn’t hold my head up in town, I couldn’t represent
this county in the legislature, I couldn’t even tell you or
Jem not to do something again.” reassured Atticus.

“You mean if you didn’t defend that man, Jem and me wouldn’t
have to mind you anymore?” asked scout confusedly

“That’s about right.” agreed atticus.

“Why?” demanded scout petulantly.

“Because I could never ask you to mind me again. Scout, simply
by the nature of the work, every lawyer gets at least one
case in his lifetimethat affects him personally. This one’s
mine, I guess. You might hear some ugly talk about it at
school, but do one thing for me if you will: you just hold
your head high and keep those fists down. No matter what
anybody says to you, don’t let ‘em get your goat. Try
fighting with your head for a change…it’s a good one,
even if it does resist learning.” etc.

Horrible, isn't it? I feel like I've just committed a blasphemous act. I feel dirty.

Damian_Rucci · 02-18-2008, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shawn

I've never been impressed with Rowling's writing. Rather, it was the themes that she put into her books that got me. I think she touched something on a fundamental thematic level that is much, much deeper than any contemporary piece that I've read.

I think it's kind of funny that some people blast Rowling for writing a "popular" book, when the main theme in all seven books is doing what one thinks is right, rather than what is easy. And especially in the last book, when she touched on the subject of sacrifice and the frustration of not knowing how to make it to point B, I think she touched a lot of people right in the heart. Especially those who have been in a position to feel love so deep that one's own life pales in comparison, or have been in a tough spot living from paycheck to paycheck. Or, even worse, no paycheck at all.

Then again, her own experience is probably why she captured that emotion so perfectly.

Exactly, the 7th book was really deep about sacrifice and Harry's feelings about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike C

Well, that establishes your credentials as a complete and utter fucking idiot...

lmao

Truth-Teller · 02-18-2008, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ClancyBoy

Uh no I wasn't.

Yes, you were. Do you know how to read or are you blind?

Quote:

Originally Posted by mythologicalrealities

Probably. I'm talented in that regard.
Just to clarify:

I only mind if the author uses no variation and characters JUST say things.

In my mind 'said' is a 'sometimes word'.

(and it's ok if there's something after it, like "I'm tired," said Billy, yawning.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike C

Mockingbird's a great example of how you can use dialogue with 'said' or nothing. You never lose track of who's speaking. Great novel, too.

When there is three or more people talking, then "said" begans to creep in--otherwise, you don't know who's talking to whom. Oh, I've tried it myself; it was one of my dirty sin... truly horrible.

Again, I prefer variation--the speakers action--as well as the dialogue. If you need examples, I will provide you illustrations from any Stephen King novel.

(Stephen King writes better than Harper Lee, you should know)

Truth-Teller · 02-18-2008, 12:50 PM

I don't have a problem with active verbs, such as: muttered, shout, plead, beg, moan, wail. If you just write said, said, said, imagine how boring it would get. What I have a problem with are the dangling modifiers--the dreaded adverbs. Please read the holy text, Stephen King's On Writing, and learn from him.

A-L · 02-18-2008, 05:16 PM

Harry potter has got my vote as literature, but maybe it is because i love the series so much. Oh and Stephen King is a really good author, though his books tend to be a little wordy and drag, drag, drag, but once you get past, or adapt to it they are really great novels.