Thread: The Lord of the Rings

Originally Posted by Mermaid on the breakwater

The fact the convention for a hero's journey is adhered to in LOTR is not an argument for the quality of the work itself. I don't see any reason why such a basic example of character development should asuage my very valid arguments.

I have not once mentioned cliche. I can point to a great many pieces of literature that do all the things you mention and in a great deal more depth than LOTR.

It's simply up to the individual what they do and don't like, but I don't understand the great wealth of love there is for LOTR. I read it out of standard practice and found that I didn't hold the same views as the consensus and I feel that most probably watched the film before they read the books. The Hobbit is a more interesting tale, although I am not really that fond of any of Tolkien's writing.

Cheers on actually making valid points in a mature manner, unlike the other dude.

We must agree to disagree on this one, I guess. The fact that people share so many different viewpoints on things in life is actually something to be valued though, so it is all good and well with me.




On another note, one of my favorite classic books is 1984.

First of all, I could give a shit less if you respect me or not. You began your snot-nosed little huffery with one of the worst insults you can dish out to a writer:

All you haters have no clue what makes for a good story.

So, you deserved worse than what I said. YOU are the one with a huge ego, puffing and puling when someone dares to insult your fanboyish Theory Of What Must Be Respected.

Originally Posted by Helicio

Cheers on actually making valid points in a mature manner, unlike the other dude.

We must agree to disagree on this one, I guess. The fact that people share so many different viewpoints on things in life is actually something to be valued though, so it is all good and well with me.




On another note, one of my favorite classic books is 1984.

What a pile of back-pedaling garbage. If you respected other viewpoints you wouldn't have charged into this thread insulting and egotistically thinking that no one had ever heard of Joseph Campbell or The Hero's Journey.

God, you are the master of spin aren't you? You say I have the ego, when it is you who insults people right and left directly. I never even implied other people haven't heard of the Hero's Journey.

Go take a smoke and chill, will you? Nothing's wrong with debate; what is wrong is insulting someone because of their views like you do.

When I said "You don't have a clue what makes a good story" I was speaking generally and not thinking, so yes I take that back. But in everything else, you really have been a huge prick.

Once again -- YOU started the insults because people didn't agree with YOU. Don't try and turn it around. You insulted posters on this forum because they disagreed with you. Plain and simple. Then you had the nerve to childishly drag it into other topics like a whiny third grader who talks behind someone elses back when his wittle feewin's getsed hurted.

I think it's worth saying at this point, while I am all for debate, one does have to take into consideration the fact people just like different things. LOTR is worth reading for the fact it has some decent language and there can be no doubt Tolkien built a very well-scaled world for the action to take place in.

It's useful for anybody attemtping to write in the fantasy genre to have read Tolkien because, even if unfairly, any work you produce will be compared to him, unless you're doing something very "niche". It's good to know what you're agreeing with or disagreeing with.

I have read Tolkien. Not only The Hobbit and The Lord Of The Rings, but The Simarillion, Unfinished Tales and quite a few book length literary studies of his work. And one rather detailed biography of Tolkien himself. I've also studied the works of his contemporaries like Lewis, as well as other middle period fantasist and their work such as Mervyn Peake, William Hope Hodgson, Frank Belknap Long, James Branch Cabell, etc. I've spend two decades plus studying literary fantasy. I think I'm entitled to an opinion.

Originally Posted by Leyline

I have read Tolkien. Not only The Hobbit and The Lord Of The Rings, but The Simarillion, Unfinished Tales and quite a few book length literary studies of his work. And one rather detailed biography of Tolkien himself. I've also studied the works of his contemporaries like Lewis, as well as other middle period fantasist and their work such as Mervyn Peake, William Hope Hodgson, Frank Belknap Long, James Branch Cabell, etc. I've spend two decades plus studying literary fantasy. I think I'm entitled to an opinion.

Yes, of course. I think anybody who has read the book is entitled to an opinion.

Lord of the Rings is often put up on a pedestal as being the ultimate fantasy. I personally found it long and dificult to read. But whenever anyone sees you reading fantasy they always ask 'have you read lord of the rings'.

I remember skipping over pages of poetry about Ellasadil and the other historical figures. It was interesting to read later when I read the Simarillions. But it really added nothing to the story. He was mostly showing off.

I felt the movie was much better then the books. Sure it skipped out lots. But those were the parts that really didn't need to be in there. Like Tom Bombadil. I'm sure if Tolkien had a modern wordproccesser he would have canned that whole section. No publisher would acept it today at any rate.

Originally Posted by Helicio

I never even implied other people haven't heard of the Hero's Journey.

Sure you did. And in no uncertain terms. Notice the bolded section:

Originally Posted by Helicio

It follows the Hero's Journey outlined by Joseph Campbell, and before posting again I suggest you look at that. Star Wars, the Odyssey, and other great stories follow that same pattern.

That implies that whoever you were replying to obviously did not have that "arcane" knowledge.

Originally Posted by Helicio

All you haters have no clue what makes for a good story. Tolkien's vision is one of the best stories in the history of the human race.

This statement implies that you have special acumen that makes you understand the books, their audience, and their effect upon humanity as a whole better than anyone else.
Hence, by extension, your statements as a whole exhibit a hubris unbecoming to one who poses as a humble soul.
Leyline, though not exactly tactfully, exhibited, and continues to exhibit, that he does indeed have considerable knowledge of the subject. You continue to exhibit that you have a lot to learn.
The story of LOTR is pretty pedestrian. The world, however, is not. Tolkien drew from his studies as a linguist and amateur historian/mythologist and constructed one of the most lasting and powerful visions in the history of literature. There's little doubt that his work will continue on through the years, if we humans are fortunate enough to remain.
Works based on Campbell's "Hero's Journey" trope are a dime a dozen. They're known as "quest" books. Some are better, some are worse. Works in pale imitation of Tolkien are a nickel a dozen. Most of them don't have the mythological and/or linguistic underpinnings of Tolkien's work and are just banged out to make a buck.

For as much as I love fantasy books, I'm not a fan of LOTR. The movies are amazing (feel free to disagree as you like), but the books leave something to be desired. I've read The Hobbit, and The Lord of the Rings twice, and now that I have the movies to enjoy, I doubt very much that I'll ever read them again. As far as I'm concerned, the story, the characters, and the amazing detail in the setting is wonderful, but the writing just doesn't do what it's supposed to--I'm fully aware that I'm reading, rather than being in the world.

That aside, I like to think that the members of this forum are mature enough to keep their insults directed at the thoughts presented, and not at the people who present them. Kindly stop proving me wrong about this.

Yes, Tiamat, you are right.

Leyline you keep twisting what I said around. Anyway, let's agree to disagree. A book isn't worth all this argument and it seems all the LotR lovers dissipated after the first page or so of this thread.

Peace out, man.

Read them once.

Meh.