Thread: The Lord of the Rings

For over a year now I've been reading through all the new books I have received (whether from birthdays, Christmas, or just me splurging at the bookstore). I still have about two and a half shelves of books to read before I can reread any of my others, but I must say, as soon as I'm done with all my new ones, The Lord of the Rings is going to be one of the first ones I read again (making it my fifth or sixth time to read it, I'm not sure).

I read The Hobbit and the LOTR series in 6th grade. I can't believe I understood it at that age - I pick it up nowadays and I get lost in the flurry of names and history.

I greatly admire Tolkien. He created a world, and still managed to create some of the best stories in fantasy literature. But his strength is also his weakness. His extraordinary attention to the history, language, places, and people of his world is both engaging and exhausting.

LMAO@ the dude saying that Heinlein's Starship Troopers is an 'obscure' and 'impossible to find' book. It's never been out of print and I've never been in a bookstore that didn't sell it.

Good lord, at least Google before you make such sweeping statements.

The Lord Of The Rings, for all its pomp and ceremony is ultimately trivial, to my mind. I find it perplexing that a book in which we have no exploration whatsoever into what makes for conflicting viewpoints and presents only the black and white concepts of good and bad, can achieve so much critical acclaim.

We know who is good, we know who is bad and the book plays out to the ultimate triumph of good. That is the book. Fine if you're a devout Catholic and don't want to waste your time thinking about conflicting viewpoints and issues of human value.

Each to their own but I don't have a tendancy for sheathing my criticism.

It's a decent yarn, though. Which is all you may want to take from it.

Originally Posted by josephwise

Flawed though it may be, LOTR gave us one of literature's most sympathetic villans. Sauron's story is a long and sad story, which is why the victories in Return of the King are shaded a bit with tragedy.

This, my most cherished element of the books, was lost in the movie translation.

This comment is the exact opposite of what is so obviously true, in fact.

Originally Posted by Mermaid on the breakwater

This comment is the exact opposite of what is so obviously true, in fact.

LOL. Exactly. Sauron, in fact, is almost the poster boy for 'generic inhuman bad guy.'

I could see a case for Gollum, sure. But Sauron? Ha.

I've never cared for Tolkien or his many imitators. An impressive work of world construction, but not my kinda world. *shrug*

All you haters have no clue what makes for a good story. Tolkien's vision is one of the best stories in the history of the human race.

Originally Posted by Helicio

All you haters have no clue what makes for a good story. Tolkien's vision is one of the best stories in the history of the human race.

You haven't explained why I don't know what makes for a good story; you've just made the statement and then given me another statement that Tolkien's vision is one of the greatest stories in human history. A sentence that makes little sense in itself.

I've actually explained where I think the novel (of six books) is lacking. You'd do well to consider those points if you're serious as a writer. There are actually many writers and critics who have similar opinions on Tolkien's LOTR as myself. Not everybody is a fan. That doesn't mean those who are not fans don't enjoy the fantasy genre in some way or are just plain clueless.

I also can't see anything wrong with what Leyline said about the book. Do we all have to like the same colour socks as you, as well?

Originally Posted by Mermaid on the breakwater

Do we all have to like the same colour socks as you, as well?

I can only hope.

Lord of the Rings is great for many reasons. It follows the Hero's Journey outlined by Joseph Campbell, and before posting again I suggest you look at that. Star Wars, the Odyssey, and other great stories follow that same pattern. And like it or not--whether you think it may be cliche or not--this pattern has forever and will forever capture human interest because it is largely the story of our lives. Hope, pain, despair, delight, tragedy, triumph--it's all in there.

Originally Posted by Helicio

I can only hope.

Lord of the Rings is great for many reasons. It follows the Hero's Journey outlined by Joseph Campbell, and before posting again I suggest you look at that. Star Wars, the Odyssey, and other great stories follow that same pattern. And like it or not--whether you think it may be cliche or not--this pattern has forever and will forever capture human interest because it is largely the story of our lives. Hope, pain, despair, delight, tragedy, triumph--it's all in there.

OMG U Hav to2lee blue mi mynd! I've never heard of Joseph Campbell before, only having been reading and studying literature, mythology, folktales and the intersections between those subjects for LONGER THAN YOU'VE BEEN ALIVE.

Tolkein is overwritten, stylistically clumsy, ridiculously obsessed with linguistic experiment and one of the most poorly paced novels ever written. It's amusing you yank out yet another clumsy pile of cliche -- STAR WARS -- as some sort of 'gotcha'. Pulling the hero's journey out your ass like it proves something only makes you look like a tool. There are well done trips and not so well done.

Now, go away and write a thousand times: "I will not pretend everyone must love my nerdgasm material."

Originally Posted by Helicio

I can only hope.

Lord of the Rings is great for many reasons. It follows the Hero's Journey outlined by Joseph Campbell, and before posting again I suggest you look at that. Star Wars, the Odyssey, and other great stories follow that same pattern. And like it or not--whether you think it may be cliche or not--this pattern has forever and will forever capture human interest because it is largely the story of our lives. Hope, pain, despair, delight, tragedy, triumph--it's all in there.

The fact the convention for a hero's journey is adhered to in LOTR is not an argument for the quality of the work itself. I don't see any reason why such a basic example of character development should asuage my very valid arguments.

I have not once mentioned cliche. I can point to a great many pieces of literature that do all the things you mention and in a great deal more depth than LOTR.

It's simply up to the individual what they do and don't like, but I don't understand the great wealth of love there is for LOTR. I read it out of standard practice and found that I didn't hold the same views as the consensus and I feel that most probably watched the film before they read the books. The Hobbit is a more interesting tale, although I am not really that fond of any of Tolkien's writing.

Originally Posted by Leyline

OMG U Hav to2lee blue mi mynd! I've never heard of Joseph Campbell before, only having been reading and studying literature, mythology, folktales and the intersections between those subjects for LONGER THAN YOU'VE BEEN ALIVE.

Tolkein is overwritten, stylistically clumsy, ridiculously obsessed with linguistic experiment and one of the most poorly paced novels ever written. It's amusing you yank out yet another clumsy pile of cliche -- STAR WARS -- as some sort of 'gotcha'. Pulling the hero's journey out your ass like it proves something only makes you look like a tool. There are well done trips and not so well done.

Now, go away and write a thousand times: "I will not pretend everyone must love my nerdgasm material."

Actually, to be fair, Star Wars is far mre compelling than LOTR in the sense that it actually combines elements of tragedy. The whole storyline with Vader and Luke is classic Greek tragedy although the quality is highlighted as somewhat less when compared with a master like Sophocles.

All that said, I haven't read the Star Wars books and I wouldn't want to.

I just can't stand the triviality of the whole thing. I want to see real engagement with the characters not endless drivel about the histories of all the houses of men. Knowing the endless histories of these disparate houses is not even all that germane to the story. Even the most stringent fanboys and fangirls can see it.

It's not really the unltimate triumph of good. And there are several characters who are not black and white. Let's also remember that Frodo himself ultimately fails to complete the quest on his own.

I read The Hobbit when I was younger and finished it. Did actually enjoy it. Didn't like Lord of the Rings though and I managed to make it up to the start of The Two Towers before putting it down.

For me, it is as mentioned. A lot of it is too based around good and evil. My question would be: since when are people/characters black or white? They're often shades of grey. But actually, this wasn't my problem with the book. My problem was the fact that there was too much description and too many names thrown out. The Tom Bombadil scene wasn't exactly interesting either.

That said, I can admire everything that went into the book. Tolkien spent a hell of a lot time working on the language and on the world. I'd never slam it for that. If anything, I'd say the book/books are more about the world than the actual story in my opinion. In fact, despite disliking the book as a story, I do think people should have a copy of it. Then again, I'm the sort that likes to buy books to look at the language etc. used even if I don't read them in their entirety. I find that reading a variety of different books helps us become better writers. That doesn't just include books of different genres, but it also includes reading books that are stylistically different whether the style is good or bad. As for Lord of the Rings, it is a classic whether it's liked or not and for that reason, it should at least be given a try.

(Did enjoy the movies by the way.)

Originally Posted by Leyline

OMG U Hav to2lee blue mi mynd! I've never heard of Joseph Campbell before, only having been reading and studying literature, mythology, folktales and the intersections between those subjects for LONGER THAN YOU'VE BEEN ALIVE.

Tolkein is overwritten, stylistically clumsy, ridiculously obsessed with linguistic experiment and one of the most poorly paced novels ever written. It's amusing you yank out yet another clumsy pile of cliche -- STAR WARS -- as some sort of 'gotcha'. Pulling the hero's journey out your ass like it proves something only makes you look like a tool. There are well done trips and not so well done.

Now, go away and write a thousand times: "I will not pretend everyone must love my nerdgasm material."

Hmm, my respect for you just plummeted exponentially.

I didn't say everyone must love the book. Your argument is extremely immature and unfitting of any adult. Star Wars and Lord of the Rings have captured the human imagination for a reason. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is a "useless pile of cliche." Some people have huge egos.